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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#59501: Jun 18th 2016 at 11:47:33 AM

Thor's alright I guess. He's not particularly better or worse than he is in his solo films aside from maybe the "he's adopted" joke.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59502: Jun 18th 2016 at 11:51:29 AM

See, the reason I ask about Whedon's writing of Thor is that, if I recall correctly, there was discussion about Whedon's failure in writing Thor properly or something like that.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#59503: Jun 18th 2016 at 11:58:58 AM

Though he got a bit of flak for the "he's adopted" joke being incredibly out of character of Thor the sake of a joke, all in all I don't really think Whedon has a problem with keeping Thor in character in general.

I do, however, think he (and/or the writers) doesn't quite know what to do with Thor as a character. In both Avengers movies, Thor is just kind of there standing around until it's time to fight, the big dramatic moments in fights are often given to other characters, he doesn't seem to interact with the other characters as often as they do to each other, and both movies ultimately separate him from the others to do his own thing and make excuses for him to not be around. Unlike everyone else, Thor doesn't really have a personal character arc in Ultron - his individual stuff is largely external.

On the other hand, the Hulk vs Thor bit in the first Avengers - leading into his finding Loki and Coulson's death - is one of my favorite Thor moments in the MCU.

edited 18th Jun '16 12:02:11 PM by KnownUnknown

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59504: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:01:36 PM

Its actually kind of funny that for a cosmic team that deals with big cosmic nonsense, the Guardians are kind of underpowered.

Its what comes of dialing Gamora down and leaving out Adam Warlock, I suppose.

Although a sort of thing in their movie is that they were a bunch of floundering losers way out of their depth with 12% of a plan that muddled their way to victory anyway.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59505: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:02:29 PM

Fair observation. I wish they'd put more scenes of Thor interacting with the rest of the Avengers, come to think of it. He only really seemed to interact with Hulk, Cap, and Tony.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#59506: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:03:20 PM

[up][up] It's because they were written with more "space opera" in mind than "superhero." They were reworked as a bunch of ragtag thugs, crooks and assassins who do business with blasters and cool spaceships, rather than a bunch of ragtag one man army superheroes.

edited 18th Jun '16 12:07:59 PM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59507: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:04:48 PM

"male character literally carries female on his hands",
I have a feeling that the trope ("male character carries female like bride") and what actually happened in the movie ("The Hulk carries Black Widow on his shoulders because, uh, the Hulk is giant and can jump much farther") are two very, very different things.

the large age gab which would never fly if it were the female who is so much older
How is this a problem with the writing? Wouldn't this be more of a casting issue? Or, if you are asking within the context of the movie itself, we don't know what age either Banner or Natasha are.

edited 18th Jun '16 12:05:53 PM by alliterator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59508: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:09:22 PM

[up][up] It did work out fairly well.

I wonder how Mantis will be interpreted given that idiom.

The GOTG cartoon made her kind of a crazy cultist.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#59509: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:18:36 PM

[up] I imagine it will be something similar. The whole 'Celestial Madonna' business could be pretty easily rejigged into some sort of religious/cult deal. And presumably she like Drax is going to be an alien right from the outset and not a human who looks pretty alien.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#59510: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:38:59 PM

I think he reiterated that Quill was going to be the only Terran during GOTG2's shooting. They can probably keep most of the Priests of Pama stuff with just a setting change.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#59511: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:53:23 PM

She definitely still has her antennae according to some storyboards Gunn released.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59512: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:58:55 PM

It'd be a weird continuity nod if it turns out that she and Groot were supposed to have an arranged marriage before they went off to do their own things.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#59513: Jun 18th 2016 at 12:59:26 PM

I think Whedon does Thor fine, though I think he lays on the Ye Olde English a bit hard at times, probably in part because he's knows the comics and knows what Thor's "supposed" to sound like. The first Thor film plays it more for laughs than anything, and the second one actually toned it down pretty considerably.

edited 18th Jun '16 12:59:49 PM by Watchtower

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59514: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:07:34 PM

I think that Whedon doesn't really like Thor and doesn't really know what to do with him. In The Avengers, it was not that noticeable, because he had very intense scenes with Loki, but those were mostly there to explain Loki and less for Thor's benefit. And outside of those scenes, he barely interacted with the other Avengers at all outside of the battle. He is mostly just standing around at the bridge, while Steve, Bruce and Tony get to know each other.

Same in Age of Ultron. There he is only relevant when it comes to his hammer, but otherwise, he isn't even with the Avengers for most of the movie. He is not exactly out of character in those movie, but he easily the most isolated of them all.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59515: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:19:58 PM

Sorta fits though.

He's a prince from another world. Despite cooling down from his first movie, he feels most at home in battle. And laughing at people with smaller worthinesses

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#59516: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:22:52 PM

I don't know if Whedon doesn't actually like Thor as much as not have a clue about how to use him/write him. Cap, Hawkeye, Widow, even Fury to an extent, they have the whole 'badass normal' thing going for them, Bruce and Tony get to spout snark and technobabble so they are all set. Thor is (one of) the most powerful beings in the whole MCU thus far, he's not particularly snarky (relatively speaking), he ticks none of the boxes that Whedon likes his characters to fit.

The end result is he tends to big ignored outside of the fight scene, which might be for the best as the most recognisably 'Whedonesque' lines he gets ('... He's adopted.', for example) just don't sound right coming from Thor. Neither sarcasm nor Buffy-speak really work for Thor.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59517: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:23:52 PM

I agree with Jakobits. Thor just isn't a character Whedon knew what to really do with.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59518: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:24:03 PM

Then why not write Thor to kinda emphasize how he feels like an outsider and have him maybe bond with, say, Banner over it?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59519: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:26:24 PM

Banner is only allowed to bond with one person a movie.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59520: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:27:03 PM

Yeah, I think that is the main problem...even Cap doesn't feel quite right because he is a little bit more snarky than he is in his stand alone movies (in which Bucky and Falcon are actually the ones providing the snark). Not that Cap can't be snarky, but it is not his default state, he tends to be more straightforward and just says what he thinks without being outright insulting about it. And using his "aww, shucks" act to get other people to do what he wants.

Whedon would actually be perfect for an Iron Man movie if not for the fact that RDJ likes to come up with his snark himself....

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59521: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:29:37 PM

That's btw something I really appreciate about Marcus and Mc Feely, they have a perfect grasp on the characters. See Civil War. Iron Man, Spider-man and Ant-man are the only ones who go all jokey, Sam and Clint go sarcastic, and the others tend to be fairly serious. Cap only jokes around in his "best bro" fashion, and Natasha actually doesn't really joke at all.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59522: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:34:42 PM

I mean, Nat kinda quipped about how when the Winter Soldier shot her, that meant "bye-bye bikinis".

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#59523: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:45:52 PM

It does seem like Markus and Mcfeely are among the least "quippy" of the MCU writers. The Cap films are consistently light on the witticisms, don't have designated snarkers/comic relief, and most of the humor they use is situational (lines delivered seriously but which sound funny in context) or the characters are ribbing each other in universe.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#59524: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:50:14 PM

I think what works is they know humor is a situational thing. One of the things that made the final battle so brutal is that Tony wasn't spewing stupid jokes and one-liners every 2 seconds.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59525: Jun 18th 2016 at 1:51:44 PM

Although what makes that work is that its such a huge change from Tony's usual.

Even Tony in serious world-ending situations spews wit.

OOC is srs business

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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