Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I've never really gotten the hate for Bruce/Natasha myself. Like I just rewatched AOU the other day (which I still think is a good if somewhat flawed movie, and I could pin quite a few of said flaws on Marvel as opposed to Whedon himself). And I kept thinking to myself "I really don't get what's so bad about this for so many people, it's seems alright to me." Nothing spectacular or anything, but I've seen far worse "romances" done in CBM's, including Marvel films.
I've also never had a problem with Avengers Tony, he's just really damn fun. And he does have his serious moments as well.
I can also see how Whedon thought Natasha and Bruce fit together — Bruce's first scene in The Avengers is literally meeting Natasha and having a conversation. And then, after Bruce comes back at the end of the film, there is a tiny, tiny spark — He says, "This all looks terrible" and she says, "We could use a little terrible." Like she was giving him permission to turn into the Hulk.
But there certainly wasn't enough interaction to justify "Let's run away together!" in Age of Ultron. And if that had been the sole criticism of Black Widow, sure, that would have been fine and true — but then people were complaining about everything else. Hell, they complained about Hawkeye's family, which was one of the best things about the movie.
Yep. A lot of Whedon-haters only concentrate on the "Language!" joke in the beginning, without looking at the later farm scenes where Cap expresses a lot of the stuff he does in Civil War. But then again, most Whedon-haters skip the farm scenes completely because they are the best scenes in the movie.
edited 18th Jun '16 9:48:24 AM by alliterator
I disliked Bruce and Natasha mostly because, for one, it came out of nowhere, and for two, was there any reason whatsoever to have the only girl on the team feel the need to be in a relationship? I wouldn't have minded them bonding as friends, but making it romantic wasn't something I was interested in.
Also, agreed, Hawkeye's family was awesome.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?Hawkeye's family was the only romance the movie needed.
The only thing I liked about the Natascha Bruce thing was that it was doomed to fail from the start, and Nat saying she "needs the other guy right now" while pushing him into a chasm is a pretty good way to terminate it.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!edited 18th Jun '16 10:00:04 AM by alliterator
The romance was badly written (the dialogue was really cringe-worthy, Whedon went full on Buffy with this one, which was okay for this show, but doesn't really fit into the MCU, which is actually pretty good in avoiding those kind of clichés), it was a way to big jump from the Hulk nearly killing Natasha in the Avengers, and I still don't get why the character who can be killed by Hulk with one hit has to be the one to calm him down aside from "well, she is the one girl in the line-up, and we really need a beauty and the beast scene in this" and "it would be too gay to let one of the male characters doing it".
There are also a few other details...for example, did you notice that both Wanda and Natasha are lugged around bridal style at one point or another in the movie (Wanda even multiple times), but there is not one single scene you see them doing it to a male character, they even cut from Hawkeye needing medical attention to him in the medical wing to avoid anything in this direction.
And why isn't she able to break out the cell herself with all the equipment? And why is there the need to send "normal guy" to bail her out? Bruce is pretty much helpless when he isn't the Hulk, but he really HAD to get the white knight role.
All this just tapped way too deeply into sexist story tropes to be ignored.
edited 18th Jun '16 10:03:20 AM by Swanpride
I liked the first Bruce/Nat scene, at the party. It followed believably from the Avengers. But then it went totally off the rails with "we should run away together because we're both STERILE MONSTERS!" and everything. They laid it on waaaay too thick for no apparent reason, in a movie that was already overcrowded.
I'll never understand the hate for Hawkeye's family, though.
And, uh, Bruce isn't a normal guy. They probably sent him because they knew he could turn into the Hulk and stop any Ultron robots still around, but he didn't need to.
And if you are asking from a storytelling perspective why he needed to be there, it was so Natasha could push him into the hole and bring out the Hulk — not only providing us with the Hulk, but also showing how she betrayed him and thus giving an excuse for him to leave at the end.
edited 18th Jun '16 10:09:58 AM by alliterator
With Dark world...yeah, Loki pretty much hijack the movie with all is worth it, so if you are Loki fan is must watch, everything else is just downright dull
With Ao U, the movie is....polarizing pretty much, it have a lot of wheedon stuff that can get overboard, even he admit did some things wrong
And im with aliterator in this one(who know, we can agree in something) there is some scene where he is show bonding with her in way other cant and they have some theme in comon: people want to use them for their own benefit, they have potencial todo horrible things
and about Ultro kiddnaping her....that was cliche, it feel Ultron go full stright villian in that one by taking someone form the team so he can gloat over it, for someone like wheedon who really like mocking cliches it fall right into that one
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"I'd say that kidnapping Natasha was a cliche (should have been someone else) but it did fit with Ultron's need to talk at someone
He was genuinely heartbroken when the twins ditched him so he got himself a captive audience
Poor lonely murder machine
Forever liveblogging the Avengers"I really don't get your point about the council, dude. They're a group of people who were supposed to be the ones SHIELD reported to, pretty much, they aren't really an Illuminati deal."
Then don't make them a bunch of shadowy figures on television screens talking about how they can step in and take control of situations to make it to their liking. Those things tend to make me think of Illuminati types.
"And arguably you could take out a lot of Tony's dialogue in literally every other film he's in (minus Civil War) and replace it with "Snark snark snark" as you say. That's pretty much who he is. "
Well perhaps he wore ou this welcome is the thing. Some gimmicks just get tiresome.
I took plenty of ire at Nat being kidnapped because 1. Nat is THE spy who's broken out of far worse such as being tied to a chair or a bomb pinned to her chest. 2. There's all that equipment in the cell. 3. Ultron doesn't consider killing her or holding her for ransom in exchange for his stolen body because LONELY! 4. Nat signaling the Avengers is pointless from a story perspective because the Maximoffs could've said where Ultron's lair is, 5. It's a stupid cliche.
But yeah, Age of Ultron is not bad. It's a masterpiece compared to Gods of Egypt.
Hahah, we'll see!
But anyway.
Which of the MCU Avengers rosters do you think would stack up best against the MCU GOTG?
Forever liveblogging the AvengersOne thing for sure, if I would have done a cliché romance bingo with all my least favourite tropes on it before watching Age of Ultron, it would have hit all the squares. It had the "flirting double talk at the bar", the "friend telling the clueless male to go for it", the "female who sees immediately that the two people are into each other in a second, even if everyone else is still clueless" (my least favourite, btw), the "male character rescues female character", "male character literally carries female on his hands", the large age gab which would never fly if it were the female who is so much older, the long discussions about their feelings to each other in a totally inopportune moment, the male making the whole romance all about him...
You know what it DIDN'T have? Any non-verbal clues that those two are into each other outside of the scenes which were designed as romantic. And "show, don't tell".
For the record, I don't think that the romance arc did Bruce any favours either, I would have preferred him dealing with the fact that an experiment of his created a monster - again - because he apparently didn't learn his lesson to be more careful the first time around. The only thing which worked about the whole thing was Natasha pushing him into the pit.

I really don't get your point about the council, dude. They're a group of people who were supposed to be the ones SHIELD reported to, pretty much, they aren't really an Illuminati deal.
And arguably you could take out a lot of Tony's dialogue in literally every other film he's in (minus Civil War) and replace it with "Snark snark snark" as you say. That's pretty much who he is.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?