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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
You don't have to agree with every protagonist you meet. Neither Tony or Steve is right or wrong in the same fashion as every other conflict the two heroes have encountered. Roussos didn't try to make Civil War black and white.
Separating Steve's personhood from his actions reduces WHY he does them. You're just taking the fact he does them for prolonging whatever this discussion turned into. Characters need to function, otherwise there's no point in investing in them. So why ignore how the Russos handled his functionality? You're basically telling me fuck the writing behind Captain America. Not to empathize.
Now I would understand your point if the film treated him as an illogical, inapt drone making idiot ball choices like characters in the slash genre, but it doesn't.
edited 9th Jun '16 9:28:32 AM by FictionWriterKing
Well, for me Scott did kind of. I really kind of disliked their "explanation" for him getting involved at all, especially since a big thing in his own movie was wanting to be there more for his daughter. Which is something that he's apparently willing to throw away at the drop of a hat the very next time that we see him.
Also he and Clint annoyed me quite bit with their badmouthing of Tony later on in the prison. It's like "dudes, this was your choice, so shut up and stop blaming him for it because it wasn't his fault."
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In Cap's case, his entire position becomes basically indefensible once you prove his judgment is as compromisable as anyone else's, though. It's not like government oversight, where you can amend how much oversight is needed or change who they answer to. Steve's stance is dependent on the idea that his hands are the safest, that he's a more sound overseer for the team than anyone. And Lagos proves that's a bunch of crap.
So instead, he gets on his high horse and divides the team (because had he not dragged Clint, Wanda and Scott into things it would've just been him and Sam on the lam) based on the inaccurate notion that he knows better.
I don't have to agree with him, but I should be able to sympathize with him. And the more I think on this movie, the less I do, because ultimately Cap spends most of the movie as a Cowboy Cop without the benefit of being right.
edited 9th Jun '16 9:32:25 AM by Khfan429
Tony's "who are you agai" was funny. But Clint and him trying to pass the blame onto Tony for their present circumstances, was bullcrap. It WASN'T his fault that they were there.
And yeah, Cap's argument starts to fall apart the moment that he acknowledges that just saying his buddy's name is enough to distract, so severely that he misses the suicide vest that the guy has strapped to him until it's too late. And while I don't doubt that Cap had good intentions, he's constantly making things worse throughout, and he's the one who constantly escalating the situation by jumping the gun/overreacted too quickly.
Heck even the Wanda thing, if it weren't for Cap calling in Clint, then Wanda stays in the relative comfort of Avengers HQ while Tony tries to work out a compromise with the government. Instead, she ends up in some underwater black-site prison with a straightjacket, power-dampener collar (or at least I think that that's what that was), and maybe even drugged (she sure looked out of it to me anyway). Nice going there Cap and Clint, that worked out SO WELL for you.
- (Tony gets a text message)
- Steve: Tony, quick question. As I'm sure you know, I'm in the middle of breaking my people out of the Raft. Couldn't find their gear, though. We can get Clint a new bow if we have to, but do you know where they're storing Sam's flight pack and Scott's size-changing suit?
- Tony: They aren't at the Raft. Why would we keep their gear at the Raft? The Falcon pack has been returned to the Air Force who, I remind you, actually owns it and they're currently running recruits through using it. As for the shrinking suit, it's here in my lab. I've been reverse-engineering the technology in order to upgrade some of my own suits with the technology.
- (Somewhere, Hank Pym has a violent conniption and isn't sure why)
I thought Sam wasn't officially an Avenger until the end of Ao U by which Tony had left the team.
Yeah that line where Natasha said it belongs to the military confused me. They're very obviously not the same suit. Aside from the new one being more advanced and heavily armed (the one in WS didn't have missiles or any sort of transformable wing formations), they look completely different. [1]
[2]
I'd assumed Tony just built him a new suit after Bucky destroyed the old one.
Tony left the team, but was presumably still providing them with funding and tech. Everyone barring Cap and Vision have either new uniforms or new tech since the end of AOU.
edited 9th Jun '16 10:07:25 AM by comicwriter
I think that cap being wrong may well have been the point. The accords are likely going to be around until infinity war part 1 at minimum, and making them wrong at this stage would be a major copout, so this movie is all about setting up the benefits of the accords (war machine being the one to capture bucky, cap being wrong about the threat of Zemo, Ross acting like a reasonable person instead of the raging douche we all know he actually is), and it's not going to be until later that we see bureaucracy hampering the remaining avengers, agendas cropping up, disasters that the avengers can't get to fast enough, Ross reverting to form, etc.
You know, this movie has kind of made me a bit more mixed on Phase Three as a whole. Given what goes down here, I kind of want to see a series of "fallout" films exploring the status quo and how the characters react to said fallout. And my concern is that most of the Phase Three films might not touch on this at all, or at least only superficially. And if the whole "splitting up/Sokovia Accords" thing is undone by then end of Infinity War, which is think is likely, they you might not have even taken advantage of your own premise as much as you could/should have.
We'll see I guess.
You know what guys, I'm scared. Like really scared. Cap knocking around Ultron in AOU was cool and all, and now in Civil War they upped the ante by having him beat Iron Man. I am afraid if they will have someone hand Iron Man, Hulk and Thor their asses and then get beat by Cap, Falcon, BP, Hawkeye and Widow with no Macguffin helping them. I am hoping that it won't be so, but since the movies are going just like the comics, I am afraid of that, and also afraid of the Russos becoming the next Jeph Loeb in the comics, once great guy who devolves into a mockery of himself while pandering his favorites.
I don't think that Cap beat down Tony that badly. Tony took on both him and WS at the same time, and he actually got the better of WS. And Steve looked pretty banged up by the end of that fight and was limping away. It's more that Cap managed to seize and opening and just barely win. Had the fight gone longer, I think that he might have lost actually.
Yeah. It's not really fair to say Cap "beat" Tony. It'd be more accurate to say that Cap and Bucky working together barely managed to scrape together a victory, even if it cost one of them an arm to do it.
That the close confines prevent Tony from just, say, flying 60 feet overhead and bombarding them with missiles also contributed. In any case, I don't think we're meant to take away from this that Cap is now on the same playing field as Stark, Thor, or Banner.
edited 9th Jun '16 12:13:44 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Just for the record, the units used to apprehend Bucky are not just the "German Police", it's the GSG 9, a special trained force specialized on hostage situations which, yes, DOES operate on foreign soil, though usually only if German hostages are involved. It is also part of the Atlas group, which is a cooperation of police units formed to prevent terror attacks. It is also considered one of the best anti-terror units in the world (and either Germany is really lucky, or they really do an outstanding job considering that they prevented a number of terror attacks in the last years).
So, not, it is not that hard to believe that the GSG 9 would operate somewhere else in Europe, even if in this case no German citizens are involved.
edited 9th Jun '16 12:17:04 PM by Swanpride

It being in-character or making sense for Cap doesn't make him any less wrong.
edited 9th Jun '16 9:12:00 AM by Khfan429