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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58976: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:12:00 PM

The only time Thor spooked Banner in Age of Ultron, it was a social fumble brought on by culture clash, not him being a monstrous warrior.

  • Thor: The Gates of Hel are filled with the screams of [the Hulk's] victims!
  • Banner: Ohhh.... (despairing facepalm)
  • Natasha: (sharp glare)
  • Thor: (desperate backpedal) But not the screams of the dead, of course! No, wounded screams...mainly whimpering, a great deal of complaining and tales of sprained deltoids and...gout.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:12:41 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58977: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:14:51 PM

Red Skull explicitly went against the Nazi. In the tie in comic he flat out says Aryan ideals are dumb. He just kept working with Nazi because it helps further his agenda and he freaking planned to bomb Hitler. What kind of Nazi does that?

Non Indicative Username
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#58978: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:16:16 PM

[up][up] They are not about racial purity at this point, but they are about their own superiority. Basically, non-believers are a threat which has to get eliminate one way or another.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:16:31 PM by Swanpride

FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#58979: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:17:11 PM

Comicwriter it stuff like his verbal action. By encouraging (the gates of hell are full of the cries of his enemies) after the opening fight, Thor's sentiment reflected the aggressive violence that he has turned a blind eye to. The tendency to go gun-ho is uncontrolled. The fun in it is real. He can think otherwise all he wants but there's no fooling inner voice. I'm saying he hasn't embraced that side. The beast comes out only for him to deny it: "no I don't act like that, no I don't like acting like that" type of thing.

Thor is physically and morally worthy to succeed Odin under Asguardian culture, but didn't want to upon realizing Odin, being driven by bloodlust, is not someone who should have deemed him worthy in the first place. Skip to Age of Ultron. He has a feeling of self-doubt during a time when no one is there to validate him as worthy. And not worthy to be king or hold a hammer. But to even use it regardless if there's a reason.

This is where Ragranrok picks up. He has to come to terms with this side.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:26:41 PM by FictionWriterKing

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58980: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:17:39 PM

They are super fascist, no doubt, but not Nazi.

Non Indicative Username
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#58981: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:19:37 PM

Plus they're big on the superiority of "enhanced" people and facism, which is completely in line with Nazi ideology. Just a comic book version of it.

Also, Ao S is still definitely canon, and they're referred to as Nazis there.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#58982: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:21:04 PM

I think they established that Captain America isn't infalliable with Spider-Man's "He says you're wrong but you think you're right. That makes you dangerous." line.

I mean, 'wrong but you think you're right' is obviously subjective, but the latter statement about danger is pretty accurate. As the film shows Cap does endanger people by standing up for his own ideals; he causes lots of property damage and injuries in his Buckyquest, inadvertently gets Clint, Sam, Wanda, and Scott arrested, puts Sharon's career at risk, and as Black Widow says, is "making things worse" whenever an international incident occurs.

RE: Everett Ross: Will Mephisto give him cursed pants in Black Panther?

edited 8th Jun '16 1:28:47 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58983: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:23:37 PM

That's like saying Cap endangered the Howling Commandos when he recruited them. Yeah that's technically true but why is that an issue?

Non Indicative Username
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58984: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:27:13 PM

By encouraging (the gates of hell are full of the cries of his enemies) after the opening fight, Thor's sentiment reflected the aggressive violence that he has turned a blind eye to.

If I killed a bunch of bad people like HYDRA I'd be celebrating that too. Killing Nazis sounds like something you could unambiguously be proud of.

And his arc in the previous movies was never about learning violence is wrong or anything like that, it was about him learning indiscriminate mass murder was wrong. That was the whole point of him saving the Frost Giant planet even after some of their people launched a terrorist attack on Asgard.

Nothing about him killing HYDRA goons contradicts that stance. He fought against a very specific group of bad guys who were trying to take over the world.

FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#58985: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:30:43 PM

"Also, Ao S is still definitely canon, and they're referred to as Nazis there."

Hydra is not Nazis. Hydra is a Hive cult that later became influcned by Red Skull, who cared less about Nazi ideology; he wanted equality, order and stability because nationalism, self interest, chaos was going nowhere in his eyes. If anything Nazism was just a vehicle for control. Control over how he would rule humanity and later on that grew with Zola.

No one in the MCU claimed Hydra is part of the Nazi part except Daisy, who was quickly rashed on by Ward for doing so; he considered it an insult.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:36:59 PM by FictionWriterKing

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#58986: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:32:44 PM

[up][up][up]Because he recruited the Howling Commandos to protect America and the whole world from the Nazi/HYDRA threat. That was a job that went way beyond any one of them.

Here he's dragging his fellow Avengers on what is ultimately just a personal quest for himself and Bucky. It's not necessarily wrong, but he is asking them to endanger themselves in something that doesn't involve them.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:35:05 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#58987: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:34:08 PM

My problem (sorry if this has been brought up before) with Cap's stance of "we know what's best when we go out and save people" is that this has been the stance of America towards foreign countries for decades now, and it almost never ends well. You can't just waltz into another country and tell them you know what to do better than they do.

Plus he goes on about other people having personal agendas, but the entire film is about him proving he has a personal agenda (for good reasons, yes, but there'd be at least a dozen people still alive if he hadn't gone after Bucky. What does he say to their families?).

I think there needs to be oversight, but the Accords went about it the wrong way. If the MCU UN is anything like the real world UN, they're often slow and ineffectual, and too susceptible to being kneecapped by certain powerful countries. Plus General Ross is not the sort of person you want to be in charge of anything.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#58988: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:36:53 PM

Except the Board of Excellent Moustaches.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:37:04 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#58989: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:37:42 PM

The Accords are bad because they broke laws the UN wouldn't even dare to. If we bring up reality a LOT of stuff changes. biggest thing the un doesnt really work like that

edited 8th Jun '16 1:39:17 PM by FictionWriterKing

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#58990: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:37:59 PM

Screw Ward, HYDRA are Nazis.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58991: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:39:23 PM

Captain America recruited the Avengers (who went by their free will and fully informed) to stop 5 Winter Soldiers capable of overthrowing a nation. And the team he assembled didn't kill anyone.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:40:45 PM by flameboy21th

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58992: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:42:33 PM

Which is information his team withheld from the rest of the world who very much needed to know about it, only bringing it up after Stark caught him red-handed trying to steal U.N. property.

The Avengers operating on a need-to-know basis with the rest of the world is part of the problem. Tony would have been more willing to listen when Cap tried to bring it up if they were having this conversation in his office, rather than in the middle of Cap committing a crime-in-progress. Everything sounds like an excuse when it comes from a cornered rat.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:42:46 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#58993: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:43:51 PM

It's not just Daisy who does that. In the episode which shows what happened on the Illias during the downfall of Shield, there is a newsreel playing in the background about Hydra's Nazi connection. Which leads to a Hydra member shooting the feed and complaining "Always with the Nazi stuff!" So, apparently everyone buy Hydra considers them at least an offshoot of the Nazis, which is not incorrect, since the "wing" which is known to the public was born out of the science division according The First Avenger.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58994: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:44:14 PM

[up][up]That won't happen because of Ross.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:45:10 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#58995: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:46:29 PM

HYDRA will, and should, Never Live It Down in regards to them being Nazis.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58996: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:47:18 PM

The cut Cap vs. Widow fight

EDIT wrong thread

edited 8th Jun '16 1:47:35 PM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58997: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:52:22 PM

That won't happen because of Ross.

Sure, it would. If Cap had turned right around after Bucky woke up, went right back into the building, and said, "I need to speak to Tony," they would have been discussing Bucky's testimony over some coffee and prepping the Avengers to intercept Zemo. Ross was entirely willing to listen to Tony until the botched Airport mission.

edited 8th Jun '16 1:52:55 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58998: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:55:42 PM

Ross denied Bucky a lawyer. What makes you think he'll listen to Bucky's testimony?

Non Indicative Username
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#58999: Jun 8th 2016 at 2:00:39 PM

Wouldn't that discredit the Accord though. Hey if I had my armor I could have stopped a raging assassin.

They could fire back with 'hey if you made your tech available we could have actual guards who are paid to be guards stop the raging assassin'

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59000: Jun 8th 2016 at 2:01:11 PM

Why would Bucky get a lawyer? He isn't staying in Germany for long. He was to be extradited to Wakanda to face justice for the bombing and would be subject to Wakanda's judicial system. If Wakanda says he gets a lawyer, then he can get one when he's there.

That said, if Cap signed the Accords, Tony indicated that they would retroactively authorize his mission in Bucharest as an official Avengers mission. This would make Bucky an official prisoner of the Avengers and would grant them the ability, in their status as a U.N. peacekeeping initiative, to put him in a facility of their choice while the investigation is ongoing.

Laughing in Cap's face may have been a poor way of communicating this point by Everett, but the sentiment is entirely valid. United States customs are not the absolute for all the world to abide by. Bucky is a wanted international terrorist arrested in Bucharest for a crime committed in Germany that resulted in the death of a Wakandan king, and Cap was acting like Bucky was arrested in Chicago for picking pockets.

edited 8th Jun '16 2:02:20 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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