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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#58851: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:23:30 PM

No, we've been talking about pigeonholing, about using a character to pander to an audience, and about tokenism. Again, we've brought up that keeping the character universal while acknowledging and keeping his significance with black audiences important is exactly what they should do - and probably what they will do.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:29:44 PM by KnownUnknown

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#58852: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:24:22 PM

Edit: Never mind.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:25:04 PM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#58853: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:31:23 PM

The vast majority of Hollywood movies are geared towards white audiences anyways, but Marvel possibly make more of an effort to reach out towards black audiences is suddenly tokenism?

edited 7th Jun '16 8:32:28 PM by higherbrainpattern

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#58854: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:32:35 PM

Don't get defensive. This isn't about you. In fact, if anything our last few posts have only proven that we agree on how they should proceed.

In a general sense, though, Hollywood shouldn't be gearing movies specifically for white audiences in the first place. Feeding into the system is just going to keep the system in place.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:36:55 PM by KnownUnknown

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#58855: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:34:06 PM

I think the idea is that T'Challa's race is certainly an important part of his character, and it means a lot to a lot of people (it's the only MCU film I'm likely to go see in the next few years, given the kind of decisions they've been making). But at the same time, it shouldn't define him, nor should it define the way the film is marketed and promoted.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#58856: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:35:12 PM

[up][up] I'm not getting defensive at all. I dunno what you're talking about.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#58857: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:35:36 PM

[up][up][up][up] I think what we are arguing is that while Marvel should absolutely reach and appeal to black audience, it shouldn't be at the extend of everyone else because it will only hurt both the studio and black superheroes moving forward.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:36:00 PM by shatterstar

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#58858: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:36:15 PM

[up][up] Alright. But still, nobody's accusing anyone's ideas of being inherently tokenism.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:46:41 PM by KnownUnknown

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58859: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:37:49 PM

It's about tone. If they market all the Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman trailers as GIRL POWER type films and fill them with rainbows and sparkles, then it suggests they don't value their product beyond an artificial and calculated attempt to appeal to a specific demographic. That kind of marketing might bring some women on board. but it reinforces the sense of otherness that Girl-Show Ghetto marketing has continually done for decades, and which many women including myself are frankly sick of and see as patronizing.

It's the opposite of works like Korra and Steven Universe which are very feminist friendly and don't shy away from that in marketing but do so in a way that makes it clear they're for all audiences as well, precisely by avoiding the use of such patronizing stereotypes in their marketing.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:48:26 PM by AlleyOop

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#58860: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:38:19 PM

I think it would be counterproductive to market Black Panther as "black people movie". What strikes me about my earlier example with Creed is that it wasn't marketed as a "black people movie". It was marketed as a Rocky spin-off, but whoever decided which trailers preceded seemed to think of it as a "black people movie". Black Panther will probably be marketed as a Marvel movie, first and foremost. Unfortunately, that probably won't stop some folks from seeing it as a "black people movie".

edited 7th Jun '16 8:42:22 PM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58861: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:40:25 PM

In which case, it's their fault and not the studios. But the studios can avoid contributing to that and alienating the adjacent parts of the potential audience whose aversion is more out of ignorance than bias by not indulging in marketing tokenism.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:41:00 PM by AlleyOop

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#58863: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:49:52 PM

A significant goal of the push for more diversity in mainstream media is the right to be seen not as a niche market, but as simply a part of the already-existing normal market. The ability to be perceived as normal, not a niche audience that should occasionally be specifically catered to.

Say they did an Amadeus Cho film, or a Kamala Khan one (ha, yeah, that'll happen). Obviously I'd be thrilled, but if they started marketing it as "the ASIAN movie about an ASIAN character that does ASIAN things, made for ASIAN people," I'd probably feel a little insulted. Well, partly I'd feel insulted because it's a little late for the MCU to start pretending to give a shit about Asian people, but also because it creates the impression that we're a separate audience, entirely distinct from the normal one. I would be asking, "why can't it just be promoted as a normal superhero movie, one that just happens to have an Asian-American lead?"

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#58865: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:50:59 PM

I totally get what he's saying. Imagine what it would be like if the Star Wars original trilogy was made nowadays, and you were playing Emperor Palpatine. There's would be all this hype for what could easily be seen as a silly character when everything is said and done, but then when you're there doing it it's good to know that it just feels right.

Also, about what Adric said last page: Michael B Jordan as Man-Ape would be really interesting. With what he said about it, I can't not think that that could be who he's playing.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:53:56 PM by KnownUnknown

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58866: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:53:05 PM

For god's sakes, it's Adric, not Alric or Aldric.

This is like the twentieth time somebody gets my username wrong. There's literally no L in my username.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#58867: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:53:42 PM

Dang, really sorry about that. Fixed it up.

edited 7th Jun '16 8:54:06 PM by KnownUnknown

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#58868: Jun 7th 2016 at 8:59:29 PM

I think Jordan's a better fit for Killmonger than M'Baku.

Make mine Marvel.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58869: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:03:07 PM

Interesting that he's classifying it as Better Than It Sounds.

I imagine a lot of the stuff that goes into making a comic book movie must sound or look really stupid until you see it finished onscreen. Anthony Mackie joked that he felt ridiculous the first time he was in the Falcon suit and then was like "Holy shit!" when he saw actual footage.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58870: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:03:16 PM

The reason why I say he'll probably be Man-Ape is Jordan's whole "different spin" comment. What I want is for Marvel to finally make up for their attempts at circumventing old racial stereotypes like they did with the Mandarin and the Ancient One by using Man-Ape, a stereotypical character (come on, he's a black guy dressed as an albino gorilla!) and making him less stereotypical without just avoiding the usage of the character's race at all.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58871: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:09:45 PM

They'll probably get rid of the whole White Gorilla cult aspect altogether. Make it so that the Jabari tribe was marginalized due to political scheming rather than because they committed heresy, since it would probably reflect pretty badly on T'Chaka and T'Challa to be upholding a system of religious discrimination like that, unless they're going to address that subject within the movie directly.

More importantly, if he is indeed M'Baku then they're also going to bring in Queen Divine Justice which should be fun.

edited 7th Jun '16 9:11:48 PM by AlleyOop

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#58872: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:54:47 PM

Actually, having them been exiled for religious heresy by a past king (Not necessarily T'chaka, since he seemed cool, but perhaps his father) and never properly rewelcomed amidst all the power shifts could bring in a sort of interesting "the sins of the father are revisited upon the son" element.

Not that I ever find that concept justified, but that's why Man-Ape is the villain and T'challa isn't. tongue

edited 7th Jun '16 9:56:14 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58873: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:09:17 PM

It could be Killmonger as well, just not with ridiculous amount of muscles.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#58874: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:00:02 AM

Don't worry, Eldrich, I got your back.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#58875: Jun 8th 2016 at 1:17:43 AM

I hope Hela in Ragnarok is both Loki's daughter, and a Composite Character with Death as the target of Thanos' affections.


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