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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58701: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:21:05 AM

The other theory I've heard is that the kiss with Sharon was supposed to be put in there to appeal to the female audience because execs believe they would find her a good self-insert to imagine themselves getting with Captain America, similar to Jane but more proactive. Sounds unlikely, but execs are dumb and backwards enough that I can believe they might actually think that.

Either way I think it's important to avoid letting one's own personal preference in ships affect their judgement of the Sharon romance which happens way too much (and has led to people saying and trying to do awful shit towards Vancamp for just doing her damn job).

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58702: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:23:07 AM

Because obviously there are No Bisexuals, according to Marvel.

At this point, Marvel's struggling to even acknowledge that Gay is a thing. I don't think they're ready for Bisexual. I think it would blow their minds.

edited 7th Jun '16 9:23:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58703: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:27:04 AM

Did you watch Jessica Jones?

Non Indicative Username
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58704: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:27:52 AM

Detractors of the Sharon Kiss see it as basically the same principle.

All this time, I thought the detractors were being reasonable about their dislike of Steve/Sharon. This conspiracy shit only makes them look hilarious.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58705: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:30:54 AM

Did you watch Jessica Jones?

Film team and TV team are different teams. The TV shows have been remarkably inclusive in just about every way, even if Dare Devil S2 was bizarrely racist against Asian people.

All this time, I thought the detractors were being reasonable about their dislike of Steve/Sharon. This conspiracy shit only makes them look hilarious.

Nothing conspiratorial about it. Just heterosexual white guys defending their hero's heterosexual white guy cred against perceived threats.

edited 7th Jun '16 9:32:00 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58706: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:32:54 AM

Such perceive threats are Russia and China markets.

Non Indicative Username
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58707: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:38:12 AM

Nothing conspiratorial about it

Nah, it's really no different than most other nerd conspiracies. This one just looks more legitimate, is all.

Really, the kiss could just be there because the Russos thought it was appropriate. Not everyone here has to believe it's some Take That! to slash shippers.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#58709: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:43:51 AM

[up][up]You mean maybe the Russos suck at writing believable romance? It wouldn't be the first time.

Honestly romance should probably be gutted from the MCU in general, since it's fumbled so badly so much, but that's just my opinion.

Oissu!
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#58710: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:45:47 AM

Call me naïve, but jumping to "it must be a conspiracy to protect their fragile insecure heterosexuality" as the first explanation for a shallow action movie romance isn't what I'd call fair.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#58711: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:45:51 AM

I kind of just wish romance were gutted from everything. Then again, I don't really like romance in general.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#58712: Jun 7th 2016 at 9:59:09 AM

Yeah im with Ninety in this one, why the Sharon kiss was creepy, the logic of "Ether you make Steve bi or your are erasing use" is baffing, even more because more of the conectin between him and bucky can be boil down to "THEY LOOK SO CUTE/HOT!" ughhh

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58713: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:00:47 AM

Well, actually... even though I fucking hate ship conspiracy theories as a whole, and I've seen enough really terrible ones coming from the Fan Dumb to get on edge whenever one shows up, there might be a grain of truth to this one. There's photo evidence during the reshoot period of Evans and Vancamp at the parking lot in the clothes they were wearing during the kiss scene, and the kiss scene is the only thing they could've been shooting for because the other possibility was Rudd was touching Cap's pecs and that had already been finished way at the beginning with D23. Though, Occam's Razor indicates that scene could've been shot just as much to resolve the plot hole of how Team Cap gets their gear back as it was to rush the romance along prematurely in place of cut scenes like the cafe because the "organic" way wasn't good enough for them. We know the writers are capable of doing good romances, because they are the same people who pulled off Cap/Peggy in a shorter amount of time, and made Wanda/Vision and Black Widow/Panther believable without any kissing.

Also the Russos and Scarjo started off early saying that they saw Cap and Bucky as brothers but wouldn't try to define the relationship either and Scarjo mentioned that there wasn't much romance in the film at all, much like TWS, but welp. Come the months right before CW came out and you have a bunch of interviews released around the same time where the writers and actors were all acknowledge the popularity of Cap/Bucky but reiterate they're totally brothers and the gay was totally unintentional (OK, I could've believed that enough without them telling me, so at this point it starts to sound like they're doth protesting that much) and the Russos starting to tease there would be a kiss in the movie. Also a few unconfirmed rumors circulating around the same time about Marvel getting cold feet and adding more Sharon romance to avoid the movie getting Banned in China, at a time before the movie got screened by critics.

It really does sound like their fear of Chinese censors played a factor in things (you have enough audience members in the West still convinced that Cap/Bucky aren't gay that shoehorning additional het romance elements in shouldn't be necessary), coupled with an interview released afterwards by the Russos mentioning that if they take risks and it pays off then Marvel would allow them to put LGBT characters in their films sooner than later. Rather than a Perlmutter-esque active hatred of LGBT people as the conspiracy theorists allege. The fact that they consider LGBT people an "expendable" demographic is still problematic in and of itself, but it's a matter of financial risk aversion to a fault rather than an active political agenda.

If they're dead set on committing to the Steve/Sharon romance plotline they ought to have fixer stuff like Steve admitting it was mostly him being an impulsive bastard or Sharon getting annoyed with him for trying to use her as a Peggy substitute and them going back to being friends and getting to develop Sharon as her own character before pushing the romance further.

edited 7th Jun '16 10:27:38 AM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#58714: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:14:16 AM

The Russos don't write romance at all, that is the job of Marcus and Mc Feely, who happened to have written the only romance in the movie I have ever been fully invested in with Peggy and Cap.

As someone who still wants Cap with Peggy and was really against the notion of hooking him up with Sharon, I am now weirdly okay with them eventually becoming an official item, mostly because they DON'T spend much time on their romance but instead ensure that Sharon is a character I can get behind, no matter with whom she hooks up. And unlike everyone else, I am totally okay with two characters kissing without having a date and a lot of romantic (unrealistic) talk beforehand.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#58715: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:17:44 AM

[up][up]I disagree with there being no subtext for Steve/Bucky. But admittedly rushing it would make no sense either. These are two guys from the 1940s. They'd need time and effort to even think about entering a relationship if it were ever to take place (Steve isn't even ready to date a girl with a nose ring, I don't think he's ready to undo decades of homophobia in a heartbeat).

That being said, if the proper amount of time was dedicated to it it could have worked. The issue is making it work in a movie that also has 10+ heroes in it and a debate about the legality of superheroism. And Marvel doesn't want to try to make it work because Banned in China anyways.

edited 7th Jun '16 10:17:58 AM by PhiSat

Oissu!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#58716: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:25:56 AM

[up]Also, time is one of the few things Cap have nowdays, by pushing nazis in the face(oh sorry, neo facsistc) to punch Tony in the face, he barely even have to to romance something

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#58717: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:28:25 AM

I doubt that Steve is homophobic. But if he were inclined in that direction, I suspect the notion just would have never occurred to him. He was all the "find the right girl and have sex after marriage" type he was supposed to be back then. But he has also been exceptionally liberal, leading a mixed unit before there even were such a thing historically, doing his best to respect Peggy. It is kind of cute when he does a misstep and Peggy helps him out, because she know that he doesn't mean to be insulting.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#58718: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:33:08 AM

In the comic Steve helps out a gay friend when the bad guys brainwash his friend into thinking he's a freak.

Non Indicative Username
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#58719: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:35:05 AM

[up][up]Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think Steve is openly homophobic, but yeah, the notion that he could be bisexual probably wouldn't occur to him right away and the idea of entering a gay relationship would probably be something he and Bucky would need time to get used to, realistically.

edited 7th Jun '16 10:35:23 AM by PhiSat

Oissu!
shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#58720: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:37:40 AM

[up][up][up] Knowing Marvel's track record with romance, it would probably end like Pepper / Tony with them broke up off-screen.

edited 7th Jun '16 11:13:28 AM by shatterstar

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58721: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:47:18 AM

I don't really think that's a "track record". The three big offscreen breakups each seem like the actresses not wanting to do this anymore.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58722: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:48:34 AM

[up]That's what it seemed like to me as well.

edited 7th Jun '16 10:48:41 AM by VeryMelon

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#58723: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:50:35 AM

and made Wanda/Vision and Black Widow/Panther believable without any kissing

...Come again?

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58724: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:51:40 AM

I also doubt Black Widow/Panther is a romantic thing.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#58725: Jun 7th 2016 at 10:53:01 AM

It's not a thing. I mean it looked a tad like Natash and T'Challa were flirting but not really. I mean, if nothing else I was able to see why other audience members saw it.

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