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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#58601: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:46:21 AM

I like Steve/Sharon and I hope to see more of it in subsequent movies.

Yeah, I said it.

Also, Sharon isn't a replacement for Peggy at all. Do people seriously forget that Steve was interested in her and even asked her out before he even knew she was Sharon in Winter Soldier?

edited 6th Jun '16 10:46:33 AM by higherbrainpattern

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58602: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:47:34 AM

Hate might be a strong word but I see criticism of Wanda's role in Age of Ultron and both it and Civil War's complete failure to address her responsibility a lot.

[up] Wait then how would House of M-ing her help that?

'So not only did she unleash Hulk, she rewrote reality in a fit of madness? Oh my God somebody tranq her and put her back in the straitjacket!'

By resolving it. The point of doing House of M would be to reveal that it's something Wanda had previously done to fix reality, resulting in the X-Men and Avengers universes, and that even with the X-Men gone and a chance to do it all over again, she still made earthshattering bad choices. That her life wasn't screwed up because of mutants or Magneto, but because of her own mistakes.

Undoing it, then, would be her taking responsibility and resolving to fix it.

edited 6th Jun '16 10:50:03 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#58603: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:49:46 AM

I've seen criticism of Wanda's Jewish-Romani heritage being erased and her being whitewashed, and that's a pretty valid criticism, but nothing that I would qualify as "hate".

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58604: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:54:36 AM

Unknowing is pretty much the only person who hates Wanda on here.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#58605: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:55:22 AM

[up] Eh that's a bit iffy anyway. Her and Pietro being Magneto's kids was a retcon that was retconned out last year. And it never really played into their stories much.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58606: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:55:46 AM

Yeah I've seen one person repeatedly calling for her death and that's it.

Also I'd rather they no bring back Quicksilver.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#58607: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:56:28 AM

[up]x4 I watched X-men Evolution and both Wanda, Pietro and Magneto's heritage wasn't addressed there with no problem, so I don't get why people are so up in arms about it.

Edit: [up] Yeah, I have to agree on that. I prefer one death stays permanent, even if that would add storylines for Wanda rather than Pietro became a Spotlight-Stealing Squad of the two siblings because he is the more "fun" and merchandisable character, not to mention Fandom Rivalry with the Fox X-men franchise.

edited 6th Jun '16 10:58:32 AM by shatterstar

FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#58608: Jun 6th 2016 at 10:59:17 AM

[up] a lot.

Apart from the few people who make valiant attempts to reconcile Civil War and the world of the MCU (and other superhero movies) with present-day political anxieties so that the premise gets played out to its fullest potential, I don't find anyone else who is hostile towards Wanda. It's something they personally want, excepting that the ideas Civil War invokes aren't downplayed. Me and others care about the characters because without someone who is personally effected by the plot that gave rise to said idea there would be no point in watching the MCU anymore. We just end up with allegory fiction. Those who speak of the idea do so independently from Wanda's personhood. As if the MCU is a documentary. The only thing super real is how three dimensional the lead cast feels, so attention goes towards that more than coherence in the premier's logic.

As I said, nobody inuniverise knows the truth, so making it available resolves what exactly? More fingers to blame? Another person to nag at Wanda when without them she already feels something about her actions. That's just rising conflict, which increases tennison, regardless if Wanda would respond or not.

Meanwhile, when the general public does know, Nigeria, oh boy. However, she will always know more than anyone else because she committed the actions, which makes for a better overarching arc; she must live with regert. Sadly that will never become a full blown story; one she's support, and two the MCU doesn't go this far where characters drawn in their misery. If you can't except two then she might not be the character for you.

edited 6th Jun '16 11:19:18 AM by FictionWriterKing

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#58609: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:07:37 AM

[up] Look it's not that complicated, it's just that if you're going to have a movie about whether or not superhero's should be held accountable maybe you should address the fact that she nearly got god knows how many people killed by fucking with the Hulk's head.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58610: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:07:59 AM

@higherbrainpattern

The whitewashing thing isn't aimed at the character herself or her actions so much as the studio though. And thank Uatu that Olsen doesn't seem to be getting much hate sent her way over it compared to some other actors. On the other hand, I tend to see the opposite problem re:Wanda's characterization. While I'm generally OK with her as she is, fandom does have a tendency to whitewash and Draco in Leather Pants the hell out of her and refuse to admit she was guilty of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Even a mild opinion like "she was wrong to want to hurt people but she's sorry so it's OK and all in the past now" is an invitation for a massive shitstorm, often with accusations of American imperialism, misogyny, and Tony apologism getting thrown around even.

It's not uncommon to see the position that Wanda was not only understandable, but entirely correct to desire revenge against Tony and that he is 100% to blame for anything bad that happened in AOU. Which sure, maybe one could make a valid and well-thought out argument that Tony bears primary culpability, but said arguments for it usually tend to have all the nuance and depth of "Japan deserved to get nuked for Pearl Harbor", and to dismiss any attempt at trying to see the situation as something more than black-and-white with "lol you're just defending him because he's a straight white male, your bias is showing".

Personally, I think the idea that yes Wanda did take things too far and regrets it makes her a more complex character than the Flanderized 100% smol precious woobie child who wouldn't hurt a fly version her more rabid fans like to peddle her around as.

edited 6th Jun '16 11:22:17 AM by AlleyOop

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58611: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:15:23 AM

Look it's not that complicated, it's just that if you're going to have a movie about whether or not superhero's should be held accountable maybe you should address the fact that she nearly got god knows how many people killed by fucking with the Hulk's head.

Not even just "nearly". While we don't have a death count for civilian casualties in that battle, the fight brought down a skyscraper under construction and blanketed a civilian crowd in aerosolized concrete, steel, etc. Those people in the aftermath of the fight are breathing a skyscraper. Ask the 9/11 responders getting screwed out of health benefits what that does to a person's body.

Also, while I really do appreciate everyone leaping to Wanda's defense because I actually do like the character and regret the position Whedon's put her in, y'all's timing couldn't be worse. [lol]

edited 6th Jun '16 11:17:08 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58612: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:18:08 AM

I'm still perplexed how the total number of people who died in The Avengers, Winter Soldier, and Age of Ultron was only a few hundred. Maybe there weren't that many people who died in South Africa. Hell, maybe the MCU just doesn't have that high of death tolls in general. How many people do you think died in Tony's fight with Stane or Vanko's drones, or the Hulk's fight with the Abomination?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#58614: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:26:06 AM

He's gonna be based off Miles' friend Ganke? So......possible Miles appearance in the future.....maybe?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58615: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:28:14 AM

Urgh, conflicted. If they wanted to adapt Ganke they should've probably cast an Asian actor. Unless they're holding off on the real Ganke for when they eventually introduce Miles proper which is understandable. I guess we just don't know enough at this time.

edited 6th Jun '16 11:42:28 AM by AlleyOop

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#58616: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:30:12 AM

The general public doesn't know Wanda performed the actions that gave birth to Ultron and drove Hulk mad because one they didn't witness it and two no Avenger told them it. Do people need to know? What would that do for her character? No bysntder inverse is begging to hear the truth nor do they even know there is one. Does the current plot line require it?

Do people need to know that a super powered former terrorist set the Hulk loose on a city and was working with a genocidal robot and suffered no consequences for it? Yes, I'd say they do need to know given how CW keeps harping on about accountability. What would it do for the character? How about make her less of a karma houdini and have her actually be called out on the shit she did. Maybe have a scene to similar to Stark with Sharpe were someone who lost a loved one in Johannesburg confronts her?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58617: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:30:19 AM

Part of me wishes he were Harry Osborne, to be honest.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58618: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:31:08 AM

They're probably going to cast someone closer to Holland's age for Harry.

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#58619: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:32:57 AM

[up]Maybe, but it'll be a good while.

Unless Spidey dies in homecoming in which case Feige's bloated, fingerless body'll wash up in Jersey sometime the following year.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58621: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:48:02 AM

Indy, leave the murder attempts on Kevin Feige's life to the pitiful writers at Cracked.com

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#58622: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:51:57 AM

[up] That wasn't a threat it was a prediction.

FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#58623: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:54:45 AM

The aftermath of Wanda's action inNigeria was acknowledged by the general public because people saw it. The aftermath of Wanda's action during AOU was acknowledged by her teammates and herself because they were the only ones who saw it. Our perception of how she changed from the three actions is what matters more than showing us people left and right yelling at her as if you think an angry mob is most important. Again that is rising to an immediate conflict, one you personally desire based on the dramatic irony. Everything we know isnt always known or vitial to a story. This isn't Wanda Maximoff: Civil War.

What would make Wanda not function is protagonist centered mortality. Forgot about the premise dude. The story's idea of hero vs hero and accountability.

Protagonist centered mortality: whether a character is good or bad depends on if you help them or not (no matter what they demand from you!) or if you're on the right side (regardless of what you do!).

A character desvers what they want - no matter how innocuous or reasonable the competitor's motivations are.

Anyone who disagrees with a character's want is automatically wrong, even evil, no matter what stance they take.

This isn't about a flawed or short sighted character. You're concerned about the latter, coming up with the best trope you thought would explain the issue. The solution here is to ask yourself is Wanda judged as deserving for undeserving based on who she is more so than what she does? Is everyone else okay with Wanda's actions, when made aware, because she says it's okay? Can you jump into her shoes, seeing the world from her perspective and remember where her welfare, wants, and reasons matter? Does Wanda not see herself as a threat towards humanity and if not why (personality wise)? Do others have a similar view and how do they respond?

edited 6th Jun '16 12:14:02 PM by FictionWriterKing

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58624: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:58:14 AM

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edited 6th Jun '16 11:59:05 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#58625: Jun 6th 2016 at 11:59:55 AM

[up] I'm not threatening him, I'm saying the fanbase'll kill him.

And I think it's clear I'm joking. But if it's that big a deal let me amend it to say that he'll wake up to find a million spider heads in his bed.

edited 6th Jun '16 12:01:10 PM by thatindiantroper


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