Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
This was what the Russos said.
So it sounds like they will be focusing on more than just the "Big 6".
Why is there a need to make a big deal about it in the first place? It's not like we constantly address whatever Natasha did before she changed side or have a steady "kill count" for the Hulk for each time Bruce looses control. The rampage caused a lot of damage, but Tony managed to contain the Hulk pretty well, keeping the loss of life low (if not at zero). Wanda had good reasons to fight the Avengers, and she did change side the minute she realized that Ultron wanted to do much more than just destroy them. At this point she not only stepped back from the notion of revenge, she actively worked against Ultron, loosing a brother in the process and nearly her own life, because she stayed and defended to core. Without Vision she would have died and she couldn't expect to get saved.
So I really don't get why Wanda's actions are considered as so much worse. Directly, she actually didn't kill anyone but Ultron. Indirectly her kill-count isn't even near what some of the other Avengers amassed over the years.
To me the whole discussion sounds like an attempt to shift the responsibility Tony carries for the Ultron mess to Wanda because she gave him the vision. But it doesn't matter what she did, making the robot was still Tony's decision, born out of his own arrogance.
![]()
The difference is that a huge theme throughout Civil War was accountability for the heroes yet Wanda's previous crimes go ignored making the whole feel hollow. Considering Ao U is mentioned a good deal in CW them not bringing it up is quite an error on their part.
Also, Wanda's beef was with Tony not the Avengers as a whole. And people mostly blame her for the Hulk rampage not merely Ultron's creation. And I see more people blame Ultron on Tony rather than Wanda. That's even ignoreing the question of whether or not Stark would have created Ultron if not for Wanda.
People focus on what Wanda and Tony did because their actions seem to have been covered up, everyone in the world knows what Black Widow did, she released her files and stood in front of the Senate, she challenged them to arrest her and they decided not to. On top of that what Black Widow did was a long time ago, she was hired by SHEILD after all that, she was given power and authority by people who knew her record and were allowed to make such desicions.
But Tony? Wanda? They haven't told the world what they did, they haven't been made to stand trial for their crimes, nobody in a position do legal authority has okayed them to keep on doing shit after what they did.
Then there's the meta reason, Black Widow's crimes are backstory, Wanda and Tony's are things we've seen them do on screen.
Oh and Wanda did not have a good legal reason to fight the Avengers, morality can be disagreed about, but legally she had no right to go to South Africa and commit crimes there before trying to destroy a civilian city by unleashing an effective nuclear bomb on them.
edited 6th Jun '16 9:59:37 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranThe general public doesn't know Wanda performed the actions that gave birth to Ultron and drove Hulk mad because one they didn't witness it and two no Avenger told them it. Do people need to know? What would that do for her character? No bysntder inverse is begging to hear the truth nor do they even know there is one. Does the current plot line require it? Should every character's action be put in check to their real world outcome? Should the MCU breaks its stance on never going "dark", aka exploring fully the worst possible effect and let that effect take over the central theme rather than the cast?
edited 6th Jun '16 10:41:45 AM by FictionWriterKing
I've always been against the idea of bringing the X-Men back into the MCU by smashing the universes together but it just occurred to me that if they got the rights back and really wanted to bring the X-Men fully-formed into the MCU without having to have mutants suddenly just appear for the first time, there's actually a perfectly reasonable explanation in the source material they could adapt.
Why aren't there mutants in the MCU? Because Wanda said, "No more mutants." It was just a bit more thorough this time and kicked them off into their own universe. Thus, the X-Men could be introduced to the MCU by adapting House of M.
edited 6th Jun '16 10:13:26 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Or just use Celestials and Galacuts. One is from another universe , big G, while the other, C, created mutants and sent them to that universe. Now mutants are coming back here, MCU. Que F4 and x men.
Idk
Dr strangeunchbox https://mobile.twitter.com/Infinitiaku/status/739793347968110593
edited 6th Jun '16 10:19:55 AM by FictionWriterKing
Only thing is House of M is associated with a serious Dork Age on Scarlet Witch's part so it may lead to her Character Derailment after the movies did so good in rescuing her from the "crazy lady" characterization Bendis's work saddled her with for years.
Given how many complaints about being a Karma Houdini MCU Wanda receives, I'm not so sure they've salvaged her character at all. In fact, the severe negative opinion that the fandom holds towards her is hurting movies like Civil War.
In addition to restoring mutants to the MCU, a hypothetical House of M movie in the event they get the rights back could also do some good for Wanda's character as well. It all depends on how they write it.
Right now, the fandom's about as hostile to MCU Wanda as they were to Decimation-era Wanda. House of M could
- Bring mutants to the MCU.
- Rescue Wanda from the Base Breaker heap.
- Maybe bring back Pietro while we're at it?
edited 6th Jun '16 10:36:21 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

I'm just hoping for Steve/Sharon to get sunk offscreen between films. So creepy. ~.~
Tony/Pepper was sunk offscreen and people loved that ship. Thor/Jane was sunk offscreen and people hated that ship. No matter which way you slice it, there's a precedent. Let's sink the awkward Replacement Goldfish ship!
edited 6th Jun '16 8:12:47 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.