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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58326: Jun 3rd 2016 at 11:57:27 AM

Yeah it's not entirely bad but the piece is tinged with the wrong side of Hanlon's Razor going by its misrepresentation of various things such as the aforementioned Quote Mine and pay dispute.

edited 3rd Jun '16 11:58:00 AM by AlleyOop

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58327: Jun 3rd 2016 at 11:57:53 AM

Someone used that argument about Jessica elsewhere recently, and I found it just as disingenuous. Yeah, it sucks Jessica will probably never be in the movies. You know who else from the TV shows won't be in the movies? Anyone. To imply she's being singled out because she's a woman is nonsense.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58328: Jun 3rd 2016 at 11:59:06 AM

What's this about Chloe Bennett being angry at the Iron Fist casting that the article mentioned?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58329: Jun 3rd 2016 at 11:59:33 AM

People have been doomsaying the Marvel universe and superhero movies in general for years. Like, there's been talk about how the bubble's about to burst since Avengers 1.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#58330: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:01:01 PM

I'm still waiting for the bubble to pop. Given that Civil War has been a complete financial and critical success I'm not sure that it's going to happen anytime soon.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58331: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:01:24 PM

The fans are losing interest and patience with this franchise,

Yeah, no. There are increasing criticisms but in the grand scheme of things, the people who are angry about the TV shows not being referenced are a small number. Way more people watch the movies than the shows. Remember all those people pissed that the Defenders and Agents of SHIELD weren't in Civil War? That sure hurt the movie, didn't it?

[up][up][up]It was when she made the comment about there being no Asian superheroes on TV or film but her, I think. Remember that? When people on here went back and forth for like 3 pages arguing whether or Katana is a superhero for some stupid reason

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:03:06 PM by comicwriter

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58332: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:01:28 PM

Marvel should just hurry up and announce Shang Chi's casting at this point. If he's going to be in the show it's not unreasonable to have a white Danny Rand to keep them from being redundant with each other. As it is though it's the conspicuous lack of anyone of Asian ancestry on a show about Asian martial arts that's causing the consternation among reasonable people.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#58333: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:01:48 PM

@adric: I do recall reading an interview with Chloe Bennet where she mentioned being disappointed in the casting choice, but I don't think she was angry.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:02:42 PM by DeathsApprentice

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58334: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:02:23 PM

Give it up to Infinity War Part II and see if it's close to popping. There's gonna be a moment where it plateaus soon, but when that moment will be is anyone's guess (except for Cracked's because they don't know when to fucking shut up about it).

[up][up]

There's a half-Asian woman playing Colleen Wing, but that's about it. Kind of weird they have so much black representation but barely any Asian representation.

Though if I were to be honest, you Asians have about as much representation in the MCU as us Latinos. There's only two Latino main characters in Agents of SHIELD, and one side character in Ant-Man. Not much else.

We really need to band together on this.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:05:12 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#58335: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:02:38 PM

Wasn't part of Charlie Cox's contract that he appear in at least one of the films? I'd like to hope the others would have something similar.

Also, the article makes a big note of Ava DuVerney leaving the director's chair for Black Panther, but fails to mention that it's since been taken by Ryan Coogler, the man behind the critically acclaimed Creed.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58336: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:02:40 PM

Marvel should just hurry up and announce Shang Chi's casting at this point. If he's going to be in the show it's not unreasonable to have a white Danny Rand to keep them from being redundant with each other. As it is though it's the conspicuous lack of anyone of Asian ancestry on a show about Asian martial arts that's causing the consternation among reasonable people.

"After much consideration, we've decided that the character of Shang-Chi represents a potentially offensive, exploitative stereotype. So we've decided that he'll be played by Taylor Swift."

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:02:50 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58337: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:04:29 PM

Also as to the central point, it seems fairly obvious that someone at Marvel has listened to the criticisms of the lack of diversity. Most of the new heroes we've had confirmed for Phase 3 so far are people of color, women, or both.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#58338: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:04:30 PM

[up][up]I'll admit, the image of Taylor Swift going kung-fu on people would be interesting. Can't say I saw it coming either. [lol]

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:04:42 PM by Watchtower

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58339: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:05:09 PM

"It's still progress because she's a woman cool"

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58340: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:07:06 PM

There's not really much about Shang-Chi that could be read as offensive outside of him being the son of an incredibly racist villain that Marvel can't use due to legal reasons.

But as much as people argue for Asian representation, I have to ask: why don't y'all talk as much about Latino representation?

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:08:39 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58341: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:08:02 PM

Asian kung-fu master is a stereotype, and the character is literally called "The Master of Kung-Fu."

In fact, it's basically the same stereotype that caused the whitewashing of the Ancient One.

Given their "White People are Default" attitudes, I wouldn't be surprised if the studio's exact response to people wanting Danny Rand Race-Lifted was, "Wait, you people WANT us to recast the character to indulge in offensive stereotypes? That's racist."

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:10:15 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58342: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:09:12 PM

I doubt that. Even the writer strongly suggested that it was the Tibet issue that prompted that. Saying "We wanted to avoid stereotypes" is a clever excuse.

They certainly didn't seem to have a problem with keeping Colleen Wing Asian.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:09:47 PM by comicwriter

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58343: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:10:15 PM

For that matter the Ancient One is not a sterling representative of Asian Americans but he was still far less offensive than a lot of Race Lift defenders make him out to be, and this is coming from someone who would've been willing to accept the Race Lift decision had it been better executed.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#58344: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:11:33 PM

I pledge to speak up more about Latino and Hispanic representation from this point on.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58345: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:11:47 PM

I doubt that. Even the writer strongly suggested that it was the Tibet issue that prompted that. Saying "We wanted to avoid stereotypes" is a clever excuse.

They certainly didn't seem to have a problem with keeping Colleen Wing Asian.

No, it was the Tibet issue that prompted them to move the setting to Nepal. It was sidestepping the "Wise Asian Master" cliché that prompted them to cast Tilda Swinton. Marvel made two changes to the origin and they keep getting blurred into each other by the controversy.

Be angry for the right reasons. When people go, "How dare you cast Tilda Swinton in order to screw over Tibet?!" Marvel just hears angry gibberish.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:13:13 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58346: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:14:19 PM

[up]I agree with you about that last point in general, but Cargill's comments which specifically named Tibet as a reason for the Race Lift certainly didn't do any favors.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:19:11 PM by AlleyOop

FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#58347: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:15:25 PM

Early on Shang-Chi was usually involved in espionage stories. Yes his father is the literary villain, Fu Manchu, but he's also known for his Taoist worldview, being an actual Taoist monk. He's basically what Luke Cage was for African Americans. Comparing this to Ancient One is different because Ancient One did nothing for Asian Americans or Asians in general except reinforce the fucking fetish white people have with orientalism. Shang-Chi is more nuanced and complex now to be considered a walking stereotype. Meanwhile, Yao never changed.

Yao has the equivalence of Fu Manchu. I don't care what you say, putting an Asian actor into that role would be far worst than race lifting it for a none Asian. Marvel Studios isn't trying to subvert what the role was originally intended for.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:24:13 PM by FictionWriterKing

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#58348: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:15:30 PM

The Punisher's getting his own Netflix series because of how well-received he was in Daredevil. I really hope the same can be done for Shang-Chi.

[up][up][up] "Be angry for the right reasons" is really something people should take to heart more.

edited 3rd Jun '16 12:15:43 PM by Watchtower

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58349: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:22:40 PM

Should I even bother bringing up the need for Latino representation when everyone here focuses too much on Asian representation?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58350: Jun 3rd 2016 at 12:24:01 PM

Bring it up whenever you feel like.


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