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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#58101: Jun 1st 2016 at 12:32:04 AM

Exactly. Oh, my brainwashed best friend who has been used to assassinate and sabotage for decades is being accused of assassination and sabotage. Clearly he must have been framed! He wouldn't do that! Except for all those times!

The key word here being brainwashed. Even if that had been Barnes in Vienna there was a very likely chance someone else was pulling the strings. Note there's no talk of even investigating why Barnes blew up the summit or if he's working for someone else.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#58102: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:35:52 AM

Basically, whether Bucky's being framed or not, he's still a victim here who needs help.

yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#58103: Jun 1st 2016 at 6:01:05 AM

@flameboy How do you feel about Bucky's theme in Winter Solider?

Remains my favorite piece in the MCU.

edited 1st Jun '16 9:26:48 AM by yellowturtle

Crow: There's a plot?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58104: Jun 1st 2016 at 7:15:46 AM

[up][up]The thing about that is, the only one here who can really attest to that is Steve, who is heavily biased by the fact that Bucky is his childhood friend. As far as everyone else knows, he never stopped being a mass murderer.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#58105: Jun 1st 2016 at 7:17:03 AM

[up] I don't know. Isn't there some kind of information in the files released by Black Widow about Bucky's brainwashing? That should be some kind of factors.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#58106: Jun 1st 2016 at 8:03:02 AM

[up][up][up]I love that one, too, it's very effective.

[up][up]I don't think that is quite true. The file Natasha gave Steve in the end of TWS seemed to contain information on the whole Winter Soldier project which went back to 1945, they will have detailed the brainwashing, too. We also know that there is other canon evidence of HYDRA brainwashing people doing their bidding - Agents of SHIELD uses it in their storylines. Additionally, I doubt that every single HYDRA goon was killed, and people like the scientists/doctors who worked on him and even the STRIKE personnel could testify that there was brainwashing involved. Same goes for any psych evaluation if it was done by a real psychiatrist, anyway. Finally, since Tony calls Bucky Manchurian Candidate, he obviously knows what happened to him.

The point is probably more if what happened to him broke him so much that he's become the mask or simply snapped and can't stop killing now. Which is something even Steve wonders about after the UN bombing happens. He's only really convinced Bucky didn't do anything after Zemo triggers Bucky.

edited 1st Jun '16 8:08:05 AM by hollygoolightly

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#58107: Jun 1st 2016 at 8:33:54 AM

" Note there's no talk of even investigating why Barnes blew up the summit or if he's working for someone else."

Because, who else could be but some distant Hydra master? he is the winter soldier, Hydra assasin number one, why someone would try to frame him? or who else but Hydra could control him? the idea it could be someone else is absurd

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#58108: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:04:35 AM

[up] which is important because Cap is the only one from the get go willing to prove people wrong

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#58109: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:17:36 AM

[up]Because he is the only one with some experience that said Bucky COULD be diferent, and even them is really long shot

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#58110: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:23:19 AM

Because, who else could be but some distant Hydra master? he is the winter soldier, Hydra assasin number one, why someone would try to frame him? or who else but Hydra could control him? the idea it could be someone else is absurd

The idea that he's being controlled at all is never brought up in the film.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#58111: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:34:38 AM

[up]what? is show how he is controled, what is never brought of is who because the most likey answer is just Hydra, as ar people is concern, Bucky is not bucky, but the winter soldier

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58112: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:21:07 AM

I don't think that is quite true. The file Natasha gave Steve in the end of TWS seemed to contain information on the whole Winter Soldier project which went back to 1945, they will have detailed the brainwashing, too. We also know that there is other canon evidence of HYDRA brainwashing people doing their bidding - Agents of SHIELD uses it in their storylines.

That's not the point. I'm sure people know he was brainwashed, but they have no evidence to indicate that he broke free or is trying to redeem himself. The only person who knows that is Cap. It's his word against all those people that just watched Bucky commit an act of terrorism.

They have no reason to believe that he's freed or isn't a bad guy anymore.

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#58113: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:33:14 AM

I forget, but does Steve try to tell anyone on Team Iron Man about Zemo's evil plot? Sam tells Tony when he's imprisoned, but what about before? Does Steve ever call up Tony and say, "The asshole pulling Bucky's strings is on his way to a secret Hydra base in Siberia. If you guys go thwart him, we'll talk." or some such?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58114: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:36:42 AM

I think he says something about it but that he doesn't think Tony would believe him, but that doesn't really explain why he doesn't contact Natasha about the same.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#58115: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:38:31 AM

Right, because displaying false interest in someone and telling them you'll meet them on the roof in a few minutes, just to stand them up as a prank for being weird and unintentionally annoying is totally the right thing to do.

Maybe not the right thing, but the guy had just forced his way into an elevator after Stark's bodyguard attempted to keep him out. Stark had made it clear multiple times that he wasn't interested in having this conversation and Killian just kept pushing. At this point, having Happy physically pick him up by his coat, walk him out to the lobby, and chuck him out of the building onto his face would actually have been a justifiable course of action.

The problem with the "we make our own demons" is that Tony being sort of dickish to Killian is bad, but Killian systematically deciding to become a supervillain and annihilate everything Tony ever built is such a massive Disproportionate Retribution that the meaning is entirely lost.

The problem with the "we make our own demons" is that it's entirely irrelevant to the film. At no point was Killian ever trying to "annihilate everything Tony ever built". The film makes a poor attempt at justifying the statement by having Killian attribute the rooftop prank to having taught him to rule from behind the scenes - which is ridiculous - but A.I.M., Extremis, the Mandarin conspiracy, etc. was never about making Stark pay for his transgressions or anything of the sort.

I just realized my biggest problem with Civil War: Tony was so sympathetic and reasonable that we're probably not gonna get the scene where Thor beats the shit out of him.

Good riddance. If I never see another Writer Protest, "My favorite character beats the shit out of Iron Man to show my disapproval for this stupid storyline," scene it will be too soon. Every goddamned comic did this scene. Every comic. You name a superhero, he beat the shit out of Iron Man immediately after Civil War to show a writer's disdain for the arc. It got old fast.

Well if they try out the Masters of Evil, they have Zemo, Hammer, Abomination, and Loki as the living villains so far (of course, Loki would more than likely not be in it due to Ragnarok). If they do create the Masters of Evil in the MCU, they probably will let some of the future villains live so that they can use them.

Masters of Two Guys With No Powers Or Super Abilities Of Any Kind Plus Abomination, then? I'm just picturing Abomination punching it out with Thor while Zemo and Hammer shout encouragement from the sidelines.

Basically, whether Bucky's being framed or not, he's still a victim here who needs help.

Yeah, but in the hypothetical scenario where he blew up Vienna because he's still a brainwashed Hydra super-assassin capable of murdering an entire squad of emergency responders with his bare hands, that help might need to come in the form of a bullet.

Victim or not, it would be terribly irresponsible to just let him keep piling up corpses while investigating. Capturing him alive would be great but is entirely unfeasible given his record.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58116: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:49:12 AM

If Baron Mordo becomes a villain and survives Doctor Strange, I kinda hope he takes part in the Masters of Evil.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#58117: Jun 1st 2016 at 11:10:00 AM

@JBC: Cap does tell Tony at the airport "the psychiatrist is behind everything" and "there are five more Winter Soldiers", but Tony either doesn't believe him or claims investigating it isn't Cap's jurisdiction.

edited 1st Jun '16 11:12:20 AM by Tuckerscreator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58118: Jun 1st 2016 at 11:17:38 AM

If Black Panther has both Klaw and Killmonger as rumored then they might do the usual route of killing one and then sparing the other.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#58119: Jun 1st 2016 at 11:59:48 AM

Yeah with killian is ether have a problematic villian but good acting or steriotipycal one(because let face it, White CEO have become the villian equivalent of white male lead) also as Tobias said, the conextion between Tony rehecting him and Killian being a villian is to weird

[up][up]Cap try but Tony dosent belive him, latter after the fight he saw new about Zemo and see Cap was right...only because Zemo want it

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58120: Jun 1st 2016 at 12:03:53 PM

Killmonger has access to a super regeneration chamber that revives him at the expense of other people's lives. If they're willing to go down that route they could always get him to come back later that way, since most of the heroes have too much of a moral code to use it themselves. But since sacrificial mooks are a dime a dozen having something that can revive people that easily might just be too schlocky in principle for the moves.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#58121: Jun 1st 2016 at 12:15:11 PM

Klaw could always come back too. He's made of sound in the comics, isn't he?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#58122: Jun 1st 2016 at 12:30:15 PM

But definitely is NOT (yet) in the movies. Theoretically of course they could give him some sort of sonar related Disney death and then have him come back later on in his 'living sound' form but I am not sure how well that would fit with the pseudo-realistic approach the MCU seems to favour.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58123: Jun 1st 2016 at 12:48:37 PM

Also him and Panther wont have quite the same kind of relationship in the MCU since he didn't kill T'Chaka and T'Challa didn't take his arm. There's not a lot of personal bad blood between them, Klaw's insolence in trying to steal vibranium aside.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#58124: Jun 1st 2016 at 12:56:09 PM

I wonder if Klaue's gauntlet will use the same kind of sonic pulse tech we see Iron Man and War Machine use here.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#58125: Jun 1st 2016 at 1:26:38 PM

I always find it funny how people completely fucking jump the gun with any new bit of news on the works pages for MCU stuff.

I feel like I wanna yell "Chill" at some of the edits.


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