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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#56626: May 10th 2016 at 5:08:58 PM

Yeah, I cannot conceive of the MCU's Hank Pym ever consenting to let his technology be used to build a prison, of all things.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#56627: May 10th 2016 at 5:13:06 PM

True. I recall him being in Yellowjacket guise when the Ant Farm was shown.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#56628: May 10th 2016 at 5:22:42 PM

So if the Super Serum and its knockoffs enhance:

  • Captain America = his inner goodness
  • Red Skull = his inner evil
  • Hulk = anger issues (presumably, we don't know how much backstory carries over from Hulk 2003)
  • Blonsky = Blood Knight

What about Bucky? I'm assuming the other five Winter Soldiers had their Jerkass aspects enhanced.

@dRoy

Why is Chris Evans trying to eat the mike?

edited 10th May '16 5:24:03 PM by AlleyOop

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#56629: May 10th 2016 at 5:23:35 PM

Someone raised the point that it's possible they might have taken some of the Pym Particles from Scott's suit when he was in jail. I can't imagine while the Avengers were captive nobody took the time to examine their gear.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#56630: May 10th 2016 at 5:27:24 PM

[up][up]There's a scene in The First Avenger where Bucky grimly snipes a Hydra ambusher. I'll need to find it again, but Sebastian Stan mentioned in an interview that he didn't know if Marvel was going to do the Winter Soldier plot yet, but he included a bit of foreshadowing in his acting, implying that Bucky's always had a dark side.

But that's assuming Zola's treatment worked like Erskine's. For all we know, it messes up any subject's mind regardless of their character.

edited 10th May '16 5:28:14 PM by Tuckerscreator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#56631: May 10th 2016 at 6:19:27 PM

Its hard to say how the serum could have affected Bucky since Hydra mitigated it by constantly wiping his mind and keeping him frozen when they weren't using him so he wasn't really able to exert much of his personality.

edited 10th May '16 6:19:32 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#56632: May 10th 2016 at 7:45:32 PM

Bucky might be not as "good" as Cap, but he is a through and through decent person.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#56633: May 10th 2016 at 11:06:40 PM

It's still a bit odd that the Raft is apparently run by the sitting US Secretary of State. If it had been the other Ross...

The more I think about it, the more I realize: Vision is a colossal asshole. Scott was dangerous in that he was a bit careless with some of his attacks, but not only was Vision careless, he had zero self-restraint, and easily could've killed Cap & Bucky by dropping a building on them, and Falcon or Rhodes by the shot that paralyzed Rhodes.

Iron Man was a dick by deciding what's best for everyone, but at least he wasn't actively, nonchalantly destructive.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#56634: May 10th 2016 at 11:10:12 PM

I've always thought that the Winter Soldier -when he's in full-on Asset mode and not dealing with resurfacing memories- was really just Bucky Barnes stripped of his identity, his morals, and his humanity; left with just instincts and training (and mental conditioning).

Which I guess is a pretentious was of saying that Sebastian Stan trying to show some of that focus and ruthlessness even then was brilliant.Especially considering that he didn't even know if there would be any more Captain America movies at all, let alone whether they'd use the Winter Soldier storyline or include him if they did.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#56635: May 10th 2016 at 11:35:02 PM

I don't think Banner was enhanced by the Super Soldier serum. His experiment was an attempt to (unbeknownst to him) create a new kind of super soldier, but iirc it only involved Gamma Radiation rather than an attempted recreation of Erskine's formula.

We don't know what Bucky was enhanced with.

edited 10th May '16 11:36:26 PM by KnownUnknown

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56636: May 11th 2016 at 2:46:57 AM

IIRC, in the MCU everything to do with super soldiers goes back to that super serum Erskine and Red Skull developed, so Banner used a serum that was an attempt to recreate Erskine's (plus Gamma Radiation), and Zola used a variety of Red Skull's serum on Bucky and the other prisoners.

I always thought Erskine's idea that the serum enhances character traits was more his own interpretation, but it makes sense that in Bucky's case it was something like focus, ruthlessness, a certain inventiveness (given that he can use pretty much anything as a weapon). You could probably also say that it enhanced his determination, since for all HYDRA's done to him, he really seems somewhat difficult to control.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#56637: May 11th 2016 at 3:35:14 AM

I always thought that what actually went wrong with Banner's experiment are less the Gamma rays and more that he (I assume) used to be a person who supressed his anger and other feelings, and the Hulk is the representation of all those feelings. That's why he has a better control over the Hulk when he allows the transformation to happen.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#56638: May 11th 2016 at 4:48:26 AM

Eh, I'm not entirely convinced every serum just so happens to do the exact same thing Erskine's did of enhancing based on the character of the recipient.

For one thing, his formula died with him so the odds of stumbling upon the exact same permutation of a formula that does exactly what his does seems unlikely.

Seems more probable that there have been many different kinds and many different attempts, each with their own side effects.

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hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56639: May 11th 2016 at 5:02:29 AM

But Erskine's serum does seem to be the basis from which they are all working. We know Schmidt used a previous version (from before Erskine fled from Germany), and that Zola worked with Schmidt's version. And since Howard was Erskine's assistant/colleague, he could still have Erskine's notes and worked from that. The military likewise may have kept Erskine's notes, and they became the basis of Banner's work. What keeps happening in all cases, is the results being unpredictable, because they are subtly (or in in Schmidt's case, not so subtly) different depending on the individual who gets it. Decent people seem to have a better chance to get positive enhancements, but can still end up with some sort of disorder (i.e. Bruce and his anger issues). Jerkasses... are in for a fun ride.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#56640: May 11th 2016 at 5:49:18 AM

Which I would be agreeing with if this wasn't movie/comic science where no-one keeps notes or has trial versions, just a sole genius in charge of everything and refuses to share. That's why the formula they used on Steve died with Erskine, because of cliche poor practicies in science for drama and to enhance a story.

If whatever notes left were comprehensive people wouldn't be so desperate to recreate the formula because it was already there.

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Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#56641: May 11th 2016 at 6:18:28 AM

In the comics it seemed like people eventually cracked the formula. The missing component was the vita-rays. That doesn't really work in the movie though since Howard was there and should know about them.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#56642: May 11th 2016 at 6:39:34 AM

He forgot to write that down.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#56643: May 11th 2016 at 6:53:13 AM

Iron Man was a dick by deciding what's best for everyone, but at least he wasn't actively, nonchalantly destructive.

For me Stark lost any moral high ground after he blackmailed a teenager into joining his own personal army. Especially given what set him on the side of the Accords was Miriam Sharpe's grief over her dead son.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#56644: May 11th 2016 at 7:13:51 AM

I've been led to believe that the serums everyone uses have the same basic principles, but have some kind of variation to them; I don't remember if they say it either in TIH or in Avengers, but someone comments that "... Banner thought that the key to the super soldier serum were gamma rays... " (paraphrased). Blonsky's one is a reworked formula of the one Bruce worked with, only without the gamma rays (I think?). It's implied that what they used on Bucky was another version of the formula based on the imperfect one that Schmidt took, and the other formula used to make the rest of the Winter Soldiers was either one made by Howard or a stolen, improved version of what they used on Bucky. Most of them also seem to enhance something on the personality of it's user, like Blonsky's Blood Knight tendencies, Bucky's aggressiveness and ruthlessness, Schmidt's craziness, the rest of the Winter Soldiers' being Ax Crazy and psychopaths, and as we all know, our dear Steve's honour and all-around nice-guy-ness. The only one that doesn't is Bruce, because in this universe it's not even his anger what triggers the transformation but any emotion strong enough to seriously upset him (or not even that, hell, even simply something as running too fast could do the trick, as the first movie showed). Also, Erskin actually says that actually the most important part of the change in people's behaviour is not the serum per se but the person in the first place. It's not like the serum just randomly makes you a psycho.

The main problem with the serum is that, no matter who you are, it always seems to work. Sure, it might deform you to oblivion, but it's guaranteed that it will give you some degree of superpowers. As far as I know there's no risk of dying, being crippled or anything like that which for me doesn't work at all. I think it would be better to make it so that the chances of surviving are pretty small (because, you know, it is mutating your body in a very non-natural way).

In that topic, I don't know if the Extremis virus (or whatever it is) was also a version of the serum, but I wouldn't be surprised if it used the same principles, because apparently everyone and their mothers have access to some version of the serum (or at least it's basic formula).

Also, was Blonsky as powerful as Cap when he used the serum? Like, before he became Abomination? I remember each use making him exponentially more powerful, but I don't remember the exact extent of his capabilities.

edited 11th May '16 7:24:00 AM by ExplosiveLion

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#56645: May 11th 2016 at 7:40:08 AM

Being backhanded by Hulk into a tree broke every bone in Blonsky's body. Okay it wasn't a backhand, it was a kick. But it was a standing kick, one of those forward thrusts so Hulk really wasn't trying that hard.

Has been thrown into harder objects no worse for wear and probably at greater speeds. I think America's might be stronger than Blonsky's. Remember when Cap jumped from a skyscraper and through a, presumably, plate glass window and ran away from that with some pain and the wind knocked out of him in the Winter Soldier?

[up][up]To be fair his instructions to Peter were to keep his distance and web stuff, he only wanted Parker to use his extremely effective non-lethal weapons technology to keep Cap's team down, it wasn't supposed to be as big a fight as it turned out

edited 11th May '16 7:42:29 AM by MousaThe14

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#56646: May 11th 2016 at 7:48:48 AM

[up]And Ultron wasn't supposed to try and destroy the world but we saw how that turned out. Good thing Peter has an upcoming movie or Stark would have gotten a visit from a certain May Parker.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
Cross (Don’t ask)
#56648: May 11th 2016 at 8:00:58 AM

[up][up]I feel like that is poor argument given the situation, however I still haven't seen the movie so make a fair statement.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#56649: May 11th 2016 at 8:08:54 AM

[up][up]And Rhodey wound up crippled. Imagine if that had been Peter instead.

edited 11th May '16 8:43:18 AM by windleopard


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