Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
The thing is that I have real trouble to see the Hand as threat. I mean, yes, they do strange stuff and when they attack, they are dangerous, but I still don't get why this particular group is supposedly so much more dangerous than anyone else...especially since anyone else is actually compelling. I was strangely sad about the demise of the Russians, and Gao is always fun to watch.
Concerning Elektra: I was just disappointed. When the character first turned up she was great. Downright crazy, but I loved the idea that a rich socialite would seek excitement in strange ways and go around scheming against strange competitors. I was genuinely disappointed when they yanked this character away from me and replaced it with some male fetish fantasy.
Yep who else is apart of it? And what will Elektra do? The youth Black Skies didn't seem human for a moment.
You are mixing up threat with memorable characterization. The Hand is an external conflict, treated as a supernatural force bent fulfilling one mission. Its competence and feats credit its threat level, not group dyamanics. You want to see some personality from the Hand despite that not being an option put on the table.
As for why they are dangerous than any other organization? Well I think the actions of the Hand speak for themself. Now all we need is a deeper reasoning behind them or the result of obtaining Elektra and the other Black Skies, while not being fully defeated. Obviously shit is gonna go down. Right now we are anticipating what type. Something Matt doesn't know about.
edited 19th Apr '16 10:56:38 AM by FictionWriterKing
![]()
Point is, I understand the other characters, I have an idea what they do and what kind of danger they actually are. In the case of the hand, not even the other criminals knew what exactly the brought to the table. Just based on the show, I don't get what the Hand is, and they dragged out the explanations way too long. It's like Karen's oh so questionable back-story. Who the hell cares, can we perhaps move on to the cool stuff?
As for why they are dangerous than any other organization? Well I think the actions of the Hand speak for themself. Now all we need is a deeper reasoning behind them or the result of obtaining Elektra and the other Black Skies, while not being fully defeated.
You're right. Their actions, particularly the way they constantly get the shit kicked out of them while barely offering a token resistance, do speak for themselves.
The Hand are not a threat. They are routinely taken down despite their overwhelming numbers. They run entirely on the principle of We Have Reserves but they still frequently lose because they don't have enough Reserves.
They're cardboard cut-outs of a racist stereotype who exist so that white people can spend nine episodes punching them - or, in the Punisher's case, aptly demonstrating why people don't use ninja weapons anymore by effortlessly gunning them down. They aren't interesting because they're one-dimensional, they're not suspenseful because they consistently fail to be a legitimate threat, and they're kind of offensive because they are literally Yellow Peril caricatures. Put them all together and you get an awful waste of a villainous organization.
Matt Murdock's high moral standards have caused his side more harm than The Hand.
edited 19th Apr '16 11:03:02 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Nope. I disagree. The Hand are physically imposing, offering a creditable threat for the Chaste, Matt, and Elektra to overcome. If they weren't then neither two heroes would end up worst than fighting non-hands. I disagree. The Hand are strong in numbers, able to throw out another and another like storm troopers. Just because they get defeated doesn't take away from the fact they put the lead characters through hell. I did not watch Matt and Elektra take them out with ease for almost their entire run time. Your opinion of the Hand being underwhelming does not match mine.
I agree the Hand are one dimensional, which I already pointed out more than twice. This is the point. The Hand isn't composed of peole. It's composed of nameless and faceless mooks, whose motivation and goal are spoken by the likes of Nobu. They are zombies rather than individuals. It's why Owlsey kept on saying Nobu was weird. He was the least "human" out of all the gangsters. And to be human means there is a noticeable persoanility. Something the Hand always lacked. And it's Matt who has to realize this. Not everyone is equal. Not everyone has anything to warrant a face turn heel. Not everyone can be sympathetic. Matt believes in repedmeation. Atonement. Ain't the case with the Hand.
As for audience members, well it seems this is the first time some of you are realizing not all characters are written three dimensionally. Also it seems you guys are waking up to the adaptive nature of the source material. Yeah they are generic mystical ninjas. There's no changing it. Marvel comics did not move outside of ninja/samuria stereotypes. No one was aiming for historical or cultural accuracy. The live action counterpart is basically the same thing except they are modern. We first see Nobu working with the Yakauza before dressing up in his Hand outfit.
The real problem is this -
"1) The Hand’s Plan Was Far Too Nebulous
Black Sky. Black Sky? Black Sky. Black Sky Black Sky Black Sky! There we go, I just summed up the climax to whatever the Hand’s mysterious plans for Hell’s Kitchen was about. Still confused? So are we." The reasoning behind their madness remained absent. We want to know. We want answers. Meanwhile, some think season 2 could have given those answers or leave the Hand out completely. At least the comics didn't take years to explain lore behind the Hand. In live action it is taking a season and a half. Could be worst. Could be five seasons and a half. Season 3 or Defenders has no choice but to show the outcome of obtaining all Black Skies.
As for the racist thing check out reddit's "Daredevil is a racist show". Fans already made threads on "white heroes punching asians". So far The Hand, Madame Gao and her drug trade, and Jessica Jone's red eyed guy in China Town are the only Asians.
edited 19th Apr '16 12:48:29 PM by FictionWriterKing
Throughout the whole season the Chaste do more damage to the Chaste than the Hand do
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
That.
Also, the fact is, "They're stupid, worthless one-dimensional villains in the comics," isn't a good rationale for making them stupid, worthless one-dimensional villains in the show. Pragmatic Adaptation exists for a reason.
They aren't entertaining, they aren't threatening, they aren't suspenseful, and they're an offensive caricature. What this boils down to is that you're pointing out the fact that they're shitty and awful in the comics to people who have read the comics and were expecting more.
You say, "There's no changing it," and I say, "Tell that to the Mandarin."
edited 19th Apr '16 11:53:56 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.The Mandarins never appeared unless trying to jump to the conclusion that in IM 3's prelude his face was almost shown. Before the twist, Trevor was a middle eastern caricature who stood behind a video camera. The twist only worked because Killian gambled on America's tendency to automatically fear Islamic-esque terrorism rather than home grown. Throw reason away once the shaggy beaded muslam looking guy sends in video taps. Also the twist was reflective of comic book Mandarin's tendency to hide by aliases. Anyway bringing up IM 3 is just going off topic, rail roading.
Not all characters are three dimensional. Not all are required to be no matter how much you wish they could. Their lack of substance doesn't damage them. The lack of reasoning does. The showrunners chose to stick with the Hand. This is the Hand we got, which shouldn't have been a surprise. What were you excepting? All of them to have Punisher's armory? At least six of them to have a disincentive personality or behaviour? You really thought we get to know them on the individual level?There's always a critical elemental that remains in an adaption. For the Hand it's the storm trooper vibe.
edited 19th Apr '16 12:47:39 PM by FictionWriterKing
Though they did sidestep the Mandarin's Unfortunate Implications by just making him white ("generic evil white businessman #3," to be exact). Which is a running thing with Marvel, and is starting to catch up to them with the Ancient One.
Otherwise, I agree. On another note, the Hand's story is not yet done, true, but that just means that this was their introductions. This is the point where we're supposed to start seeing shades of them, understanding why they're a threat and what they stand for, and why the heroes should oppose them. The same very season shows this with the Punisher - if Frank's plot had begun the same way the Hand's did, it would have fallen apart. There would've been no foundation.
If the Hand were never going to be three dimensional, then they should not have taken over the plot. The shouldn't have phased out the Punisher's plot to focus on them, because someone needs to carry the story. And even if they were going to phase out the Punisher anyway, they should've given us a face for the Hand that was more engaging and more developed than Nobu. As it is, they're just a bunch of faceless goons that we're supposed to accept as Big Bad.
To give a comparison: Sauron is two dimensional. Gollum is not. The overarching plot of LOTR is about Sauron, but he barely appears. The actual plot is about the characters we do see, and the villain of much of it is Gollum specifically because he can carry a plot and Sauron can't. Saruman a bit less so - while he's still a bit of a character type, he's ultimately more layered than Sauron.
In stories where there can't be three dimensional antagonists, then the plot should be all about the characters themselves. And Daredevil starts doing that, but then drops it to bring the plot back to the Hand again and again, basing whole episodes around Matt's battles with them while simultaneously somehow giving us nothing about them. It results in a boring mess.
edited 19th Apr '16 12:40:46 PM by KnownUnknown
Without the resolution, once again explanation, it sounds boring to you for the time being. I'm not bothered by it as much as others. I could have learned more about Black Sky's importance. That's it. The suspense is there for me. What are they going to do with Elektra? Next season will jizz the shot out that answer. I wouldn't care to know what happens next if they did abosluality nothing. You need more insight into why. I can wait for the answer. Also I don't think the Hand consumed Daredevil season 2.
edited 19th Apr '16 1:02:20 PM by FictionWriterKing
I mean, even allowing for more information to be revealed about them in the future, they're still playing to Yellow Peril stereotypes, which strikes me as something that should have been avoided.
Oh God! Natural light!Season 1 givew me confidence that the Hand will get fleshed out and made more interesting in season 3. It still doesn't excuse the poor showing in 2. There must have been some other plot they could focus on if they weren't ready to reveal things about them.
The race thing is a separate issue in my mind. I appreciate the fact that the show actually has Asian people. The movies have been doing poorly on that front. I just wish Daredevil was a bit more like Agents of Shield in this regard?
The weirdest thing to me about the Hand showing up in Daredevil is that someone looked at the heaps of praise last season got for having a villain with identifiable motives and a fleshed-out inner life and decided that the best way to proceed in replacing him was to give us villains with no clear end game and no interiority.
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.Well the only thing about the asian racism. Play on ninja tropes or give various Hands personalities worth discussing about. Everyone except Nobu doesn't have memorable characterization. They would still be ninjas though fighting yes white heroes. As the reddit thread pointed out, the problem is more that we are never given non "evil" Asians.
.............
Cons from the argument
Plot progession - the Hand, although a plot incident themselves, lead to nowhere.
Characterization - weak.
Two criticisms I am reading here.
edited 19th Apr '16 1:10:26 PM by FictionWriterKing
There is no "for the time being." The season is over, and a season is a complete story. The sequel hooks (which are only set up in the very end as a result of the Hand's defeats in this season, so it can't be said that the rest of the plot was part of that) were only to set up what else the Hand is going to in this season, not justify all the episodes that they were already present for - which is quite a bit of the season.
Any Hand development later would be them trying to make up for the problems this season, rather than giving validation to those problem. Worse, they would be facing up against the fact that they already had a major arc where the Hand were the main antagonist, and would have to avoid just doing more of the same.
If the defense is that we only think it's poorly done because the story wasn't finished, then we're forced to conclude that the season wasn't adequately plotted. And if they were going to give the Hand in a major way but felt they couldn't actually give them development or significance, then they should have just given them the whole of the next season.
edited 19th Apr '16 1:13:17 PM by KnownUnknown
I mostly just wish Nobu had more characterization and motivation. I mean, it'd be pretty tough to top Kingpin, but he felt like an Elite Mook rather than a Big Bad.
Which is maybe the point, if we're going to see actual leadership of the Hand in Season 3, but it is unfortunate for Season 2's narrative.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Stan Gibson would have been a good character to cast an Asian actor for. He's the Roxxon accountant whose son has been abducted by The Hand. As I mentioned before, he's the one sympathetic character affiliated with the organization; in stark contrast to the facelessly sinister agents of evil that comprise their ranks, he's just a guy in a bad position and forced to work with them.
Making him the organization's only white guy was a really bad call.
Nobu also could have used some fleshing out. Who is he? Why did he join The Hand? What are his personal goals and motives? They had ample time to really establish Nobu as a character, but instead he's just the face of the sinister agents of evil. Cutting out a few of the pointless, repetitive ninja fights and replacing them with characterization for Nobu would have helped a lot. And they can't fix that in season 3 because he's perma-dead now.
They also wasted a perfectly good Race Lift of Elektra. Being cast as Asian, she could have been a solid contrast to the Evil Magic Ninjas by being non-Evil, non-Magic, and non-Ninja. But instead, the fact that she's Asian was just foreshadowing that she's the Evil Magic Ninja Messiah, because DareDevil really wants you to understand that all Asian people are in some way connected to evil, magic, and ninja.
Really, they had a lot of opportunities to avoid the bland Yellow Peril archetype and they squandered every one of them.
edited 19th Apr '16 1:20:07 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.What they could have done isn't a problem for me because I am focused on what they did do. Now I wait for the explanation for specifically hunting down Black Skies, digging the hole, draining blood, and replacing blood with a foregone substance. No by once said he has others he answers to. The show runners created an unknown for us. And As the story progresses they are escalating and building off the intentional scenario. It's just Mat is reluctant against that scenario, only being drawn into it by outside forces mainly named Stick. I don't know all the important answers and I do care about the outcome of those answers. A mystery. I liked it.
I call that bullshit.
Just because Elodie Young's father is Cambodian doesn't mean she was automatically hand picked to have the Black Sky subplot packed in. Her ethnicity did not foreshadow the background of her character
edited 19th Apr '16 1:42:30 PM by FictionWriterKing
It's only a mystery if there are clues. The Hand gave us a handful of vague questions without even the barest hints of an answer. That's not a mystery, it's reserving the right to have a plotline occur at a later date.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Suspense is about asking questions.
How will the protagonist get out of this mess?
What is in the crate?
What's lurking behind the bushes?
Will everyone make it out alive?
Will they end up together?
The evidence supporting these questions can be vague, descriptive, or obvious. However, it's the danger various characters have to go through to achieve these answers that makes suspense compelling. People aren't going to care what happens in the next chapter title or season if they already know the most important answers because everything follows the typical conventions of its genre. People aren't going to care if the outcome doesn't matter. Taking too long to reach it can kill interest. If the outcome remains the same then it can kill interest. Etc.
I don't think season 2 suffers to the degree of boredom like you. I'm on the opposite end. I want to know what happens next. My interest is hooked. If I compared it to another show were plot events dragged on DD would be the least of these complainants.
edited 19th Apr '16 1:59:34 PM by FictionWriterKing

Nobu is a minor antagonist in a much larger orgization. He is too flat and static to move beyond his first introduction. The only difference between him and others is he has a name, a face, a voice, and better feats. He's mysterious. At least the opposition acknowledges that allure nature. Though Matt still seems reluctant. If they want to they can bring can come back. But that depends on how magic works in the Hand. Does revival work three times? This was the rising action for the Hand. Now unleash the climax
edited 19th Apr '16 10:44:48 AM by FictionWriterKing