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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#55001: Apr 12th 2016 at 4:02:14 PM

IIRC Vulture was going to be the villain of Spider-Man 4 before they scrapped it for ASM.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#55002: Apr 12th 2016 at 4:16:04 PM

Well the most iconic version of Vulture is the old man but if I recall there is a younger person who sometimes dons the green feathers.

So if the studios don't feel comfortable with Spidey's debut being him punching out an old man, that option is there.

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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#55003: Apr 12th 2016 at 4:29:32 PM

I don't really see how a younger person could be Vulture. I always thought that his wrinkled, bald head was as much a feature of the character as the suit.

edited 12th Apr '16 4:33:24 PM by LordVatek

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55004: Apr 12th 2016 at 4:44:39 PM

YES VULTURE! One of my favorite Spidey villains! I will riot if he's not an old man!

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#55005: Apr 12th 2016 at 4:53:39 PM

Have the Vulture be played by Charles Dance with all the icy menace the man can conjure.

Because Tywin Lannister should be in everything.

From lion to vulture.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#55006: Apr 12th 2016 at 5:31:41 PM

They could go with the version of the character that drains the youth out of people.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#55007: Apr 12th 2016 at 5:33:06 PM

It'd be fun if, like, after Civil War Spider-Man is a fugitive that no one actually bothers pursuing (like Batman in the beginning of The Dark Knight Rises), and Vulture is introduced as the one person willing to take advantage of that. Sort of like the Civil War story where he goes bounty hunter on Spidey, but expanded in regards to Vulture's intentions and motivation and such.

It would also be interesting if, like EMH, it's established that Spidey's been active for a while even though the series hasn't been paying attention to him, so that this possibly isn't the first time the two have fought.

Though it's just a rumor either way at this point, it'd still be interesting. The hard part would probably be retooling him into a Big Bad character-wise - when it comes to powers, like most Spider-Man foes Vulture's a no-brainer. But as a character, Toomes has always been a petty criminal with a gimmick (which is why he actually would've worked perfectly alongside Sandman in Spider-Man 3), and if he is the actual main villain it's unlikely they'll go with that. Movieverse Vulture is liable to be a very different character.

That is, if it's true.

Still, I really want to see Chameleon in one of these movies.

edited 12th Apr '16 5:34:48 PM by KnownUnknown

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#55008: Apr 12th 2016 at 5:53:23 PM

Well, if they do go with the route that Spidey's been active for a while and the rumor did say that he wasn't the main villain. They may just have the audacity to go through with the Sinister Six.

edited 12th Apr '16 5:55:28 PM by LordVatek

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55009: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:04:23 PM

Give Vulture green Falcon wings with mechanical talons on his feet. Just make him a shallow grandpa thief if we're focusing on Peter's school life over the villain. Maybe have Vulture have a grandchild who's in Parker's school as a subplot.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#55010: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:13:38 PM

The idea of making the Vulture a bounty hunter trying to cash in Spider's bounty is actually pretty great. Not only does it give him a fresher motivation and occupation (so rather than just a thief he's a bounty hunter and actually on the side of the law on this one), it plays up the "Friend or foe?" aspect of Spider-Man to its finest extent (presumably having the focus on the city originally siding with the Vulture's bounty hunting ways but have Spider-Man slowly win them over with his heroics and Vulture lose them with his villainy).

You could also toss in Kraven for good measure as a competing bounty hunter.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#55011: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:26:13 PM

I was just about to say, in what fucking world do you have a Spider-Man anything with a plot that involves the world "Hunt" without Kraven the Hunter?

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comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#55012: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:27:43 PM

They could go with the version of the character that drains the youth out of people.

Make it a metaphor for the film series. "I must stay forever young...and hip!"

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55013: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:38:52 PM

Right when he says that, he breaks his hip.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#55014: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:39:51 PM

I'd actually like to see Sandman again.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#55015: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:43:05 PM

His wings being not just Falcon-like but literal Stark tech, either because he knew an ex-pararescueman, was involved in the making of them, or had one of the last copies left would be a neat tie-in to the rest of the MCU.

Speaking of which did they ever resolve the fact that the Avengers basically stole the thing from a military installation? How'd they smooth that over? Did Tony pay them back or fund the building of a newer, better version or what?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55016: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:44:05 PM

Vulture and Kraven as villains for the new movie sounds good. Just keep it to just those two, no more.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#55017: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:51:15 PM

Spiderman movies have proven they really can't handle very many villains.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#55018: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:51:22 PM

Speaking of which did they ever resolve the fact that the Avengers basically stole the thing from a military installation? How'd they smooth that over? Did Tony pay them back or fund the building of a newer, better version or what?

There was a Senate hearing after the big Triskelion showdown, so likely it was covered around the same time as the "blowing up the Helicarriers" discussion.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#55019: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:52:46 PM

[up][up] To be fair, those were because of problems deeper than merely having too many villains.

edited 12th Apr '16 6:53:09 PM by KnownUnknown

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#55020: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:58:08 PM

@Pheer, only because they were being handled by poor writing. I'd like to refer to the gold standard, The Winter Soldier, that reasonably had Batroc Ze Leaper, The Winter Soldier himself, Pierce, and Armin Zola in one movie without feeling stuffed and overbloated with baddies.

It's all about how the writers and directors handle it. Also deciding which have weight.

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wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#55021: Apr 12th 2016 at 7:01:52 PM

Before that, there was also Batman Begins, which had three villains (Falcone, Scarecrow, Ra's).

The thing with both of these movies is that they decided who was important and made a commitment. The films don't feel like they have a bunch of subplots muddling the movie that converge in an underwhelming fashion at the end like Spider-Man 3, they feel like all the villains are part of the main plot and fit together very neatly.

IronScope STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS. from Somewhere Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS.
#55022: Apr 12th 2016 at 7:02:26 PM

[up][up]And Crossbones!

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comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#55023: Apr 12th 2016 at 7:37:15 PM

Speaking of which did they ever resolve the fact that the Avengers basically stole the thing from a military installation? How'd they smooth that over? Did Tony pay them back or fund the building of a newer, better version or what?

According to All There in the Manual, Tony Stark built Sam's suit for the military, so maybe he stepped in to smooth things over.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#55024: Apr 12th 2016 at 7:53:26 PM

One of Spider-Man's biggest problems is related to it's number of villains, but not caused by it - it's caused by how they worked those villains into the plot.

The basic problem was that while you could say they shared some themes and moments, the Sandman/forgiveness plot and the Venom/dark side plot had basically nothing to do with each other, and the movie kept trying to go the full experience with both of them, even though the plots took away from each other more than they actually built each other up. Likewise, Harry's plot and the stuff with MJ and Aunt May could have tied into one or the other of those main very well (and there's shades of that in the movie), but not both at once, and the movie tries to make it connected to both plots and fails miserably. As a result, the story is a mess, nobody gets the development they deserve and the climax is ridiculous.

Winter Soldier, for example, has a Big Bad, two Heavys, and a Bigger Bad / Precursor Villain all of whom are closely tied into the same plot and thus all of whom work without distracting from one another - plus Batroc who seems like a random opener villain and then turns out to be closely tied into that plot as well. It allows the plot to fit all five of those villains and develop them within that one story while also having room for other development elsewhere without making the movie become muddled, while also giving it significant connections to the rest of the universe.

That's why I think the initial idea of the movie being Sandman and Harry, with Vulture as Sandman's Eviler than Thou accomplice, would've been a much better experience with the same amount of villains - it keeps everything centered on the main plot and its big themes, gives an additional antagonist who is poised to change the scope of the conflict while keeping it focused on the characters already in it, and thus gives the Harry subplot more room to grow and influence everything else.

But either way it's also a consequence of how superhero movies treated villains at that time: every villain has to be the biggest, most meaningful enemy in the hero's life, has to be even more epic than anything he's seen before, and has to have a full, developed plotline that hits him more personally and deeply than anything he's already faced, and has to have the same kind of dramatic plotline that pulls them both together.

As much as I wish the MCU would give its villains more attention and development, the Spider-Man series is a good example of how that sort of thing can fail over time (Green Lantern is an example of the same principle screwing up within a single movie): inventing flaws and personal problems so the hero can go through the same development again, bogging down the story with long winded origin stories that tie into the development of the aforementioned personal problems, a serious issue with So Last Season in regards to villains, the feeling like everything the hero does exists in a vacuum outside of what we see...

Edit: Wow, this turned out longer than I thought it would...

edited 12th Apr '16 7:54:46 PM by KnownUnknown

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#55025: Apr 12th 2016 at 8:13:21 PM

And the Sandman storyline at the end of Spider Man 3 just kind of... ends. He shows up one more time to talk about his daughter and then he just flies off. You could make a reasonably affecting storyline about him if you focused. Spider-Man 3 essentially had three villain stories in there and focused on none of them.

edited 12th Apr '16 8:14:29 PM by edvedd

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