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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Cross (Don’t ask)
#53676: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:11:14 PM

Was the sword called Damocles?

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#53677: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:11:34 PM

Speaking of which: the main argument for not using the Mandarin is that he's a racist caricature... and yet Daredevil uses a ninja Ancient Conspiracy from Japan with some evil sorcery capable of resurrecting the dead. Yeah...
Fuck this season of Daredevil, is what I'm saying.

Like, dear lord. At least the previous season the terrible Asian stereotypes were a footnote.

edited 21st Mar '16 5:12:13 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#53678: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:15:33 PM

[up]I don't know, personally I liked it. Granted, the Hand were a bit of a one-note villain, but at least we got a rather good Elektra and a version of the Punisher I actually liked.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#53679: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:17:35 PM

If that really was the main argument they wouldn't have felt the need to add a twist at the end when he already wasn't chinese anymore.

That was a specific choice from the director, but one I personally liked. As long as you're already not using him, getting in some licks at why the character doesn't work is great in my book.

Anyway regarding what you said, I agree that pandering to the fanbase isn't necessarly good. I mean, I personally hate a specific show for doing just that. But there is such thing as a good balance. You don't need to be 100% faithful to the adaption nor to give the fans exactly what they want, but try going the opposite road and you get adaptations In-Name-Only that aren't necessarly better than the source material. Marvel usually is fairly good at striking balance between these two extreme... but not in this case.

Again, that's really debatable. They made some radical changes and Iron Man 3 ended up as the biggest grossing superhero movie of the year with fairly good reviews as well. Clearly it didn't end up hurting them any.

edited 21st Mar '16 5:19:00 PM by comicwriter

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#53680: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:20:57 PM

Isn't Elektra a good, complex Asian character that Daredevil season 2 provides us with?

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#53683: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:25:42 PM

I'm pretty certain she's supposed to be Asian in the show too. The whole Reveal is that she was stolen from The Hand and given to a Greek couple as an adopted daughter.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#53684: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:27:24 PM

Anyway, regarding the PTSD: I think the mistake is to think it has been resolved. Tony coped with his PTSD the same way he'd been doing all movie. He distracted himself by building things instead.

Which is actually a recommended way of dealing with it.

That's a fine way of looking at it and all, but I still feel it was a very lackluster conclusion to that plotline; the idea of distracting himself from it is fine, but it happens way too early in the movie and doesn't feel like it's a big enough deal (yes, I know it's a while before it happens, I just think having him "deal with it" before the third act starts was a mistake). I haven't seen future movies where Tony is involved to see if the PTSD is still present, but I just don't think it was very satisfying relative to the context of Iron Man 3. It doesn't help that once Tony distracts himself from it, the movie immediately stops being interesting.

I guess it's kinda obvious that I didn't like Iron Man 3 that much, isn't it?

But I guess this all goes to show that IM 3 is probably the most controversial film in the MCU still, even after all this time. I'm not sure that this will be any different for a while.

edited 21st Mar '16 5:37:29 PM by wehrmacht

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#53685: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:55:02 PM

With Tony PTSD, build more dosent seen as good solution as he become depent on his amour, I think in the end he focus in trusting himself

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#53686: Mar 21st 2016 at 6:46:26 PM

Even if Elektra is supposed to be Asian—the show never says explicitly—it's still kinda terrible that the only Asian good guy is, y'know, not actually Asian.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#53687: Mar 21st 2016 at 7:41:32 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Make mine Marvel.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#53689: Mar 21st 2016 at 7:45:11 PM

[up][up]You might have wanted to be a bit less dismissive there.

I haven't seen the second season of Daredevil yet so I can't comment on its treatment of asian characters, but if it was actually stereotypical or bad that would be a fair criticism to make.

edited 21st Mar '16 7:45:21 PM by wehrmacht

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#53690: Mar 21st 2016 at 7:53:00 PM

I'm a bit lost on how she isn't actually ethnically Asian.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#53693: Mar 21st 2016 at 9:00:00 PM

On the subject of Daredevil season 2, I watched episodes 3-5 today. Elektra's really awesome, and I'm rather surprised to see Punisher locked away so early, but I assume we'll be seeing him plenty still.

Also, goddamn, that stairwell fight at the end of 3.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#53695: Mar 21st 2016 at 10:17:10 PM

Let me get this right, when these guys [nja][nja][nja][nja][nja][nja][nja][nja][nja][nja][nja] are Mooks, that's problematic?

edited 21st Mar '16 10:22:30 PM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#53696: Mar 21st 2016 at 10:22:08 PM

[up]My problem is that they sent hundreds of ninjas instead of just one. Inverse ninja law guys. Look it up!

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#53697: Mar 22nd 2016 at 1:13:45 AM

Perhaps you should take this discussion to the Daredevil threat, before someone drops a major spoiler. Some people do need time to watch the whole thing after all.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#53698: Mar 22nd 2016 at 1:14:19 AM

That was a specific choice from the director, but one I personally liked.

Yeah, I kinda got that. And I don't like it, and I already told you several times I thought there were ways to adapt the character without making him a racist caricature. Now please stop saying over and over again that you don't think the Mandarin character works so we can finally move on from this argument.

Again, that's really debatable. They made some radical changes and Iron Man 3 ended up as the biggest grossing superhero movie of the year with fairly good reviews as well. Clearly it didn't end up hurting them any.

I know, I was speaking from my point of view. Also just because a moving is high grossing doesn't mean it's good. Avatar was the biggest grossing movie since Titanic yet almost everyone agrees its story was crap. Plus Iron Man 3 had plenty of factors- second sequel of an already highly successful movie, RDJ's acting - to make sure it would make a lot of money anyway. It's a bit of an easy answer to say "it made tons of money so it has to be good".

Her actress is French-Cambodian though.

Ah, so that's why they gave her a french-speaking scene.

[up][up]Well, that's kinda the thing I am wondering. Is using japanese ninja as villains a racist caricature or not? I mean, technically it has been done in plenty of media (heck, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have this as their main villain faction) and very few people ever complained.

edited 22nd Mar '16 1:16:38 AM by Theokal3

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#53699: Mar 22nd 2016 at 2:20:37 AM

To be fair in TMNT's case you have Japanese trained ninjas versus Japanese trained ninjas. It's like sending an army of stereotypical black street criminals against your WASP-y hero.

In my opinion though the problem with ninjas in Western media is less about racism (IMO they've sufficiently divorced from general media portrayals of the Japanese that I don't think they're even close to as problematic as stereotypes about salarymen, geishas, or schoolgirls and the like) and more that they've (d)evolved into a tired and cheesy cliche.

edited 22nd Mar '16 2:21:25 AM by AlleyOop

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#53700: Mar 22nd 2016 at 2:27:09 AM

I mean, I like ninjas, but if you're going to give them little actual character depth, then I'm not sure if there's much to them beyond "generic Japanese villains".

Which might not be a huge problem, if they weren't being set up as the main villains.

edited 22nd Mar '16 2:27:26 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

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