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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#53651: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:59:03 PM

The Mandarin started out as a racist caricature, but he had some better versions in modern comics.
People keep saying this but I've gotten no examples of what runs, exactly, I should be picking up in which he works in the slightest—unless you count the Armored Adventures TV series, which I'm still not convinced did an especially good job.

Even if his depiction is better he's still a Chinese villain named after a fucking dialect of Chinese, as though he was named by someone jabbing their finger into a paperback translation dictionary at random.

edited 21st Mar '16 2:00:13 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#53652: Mar 21st 2016 at 2:02:59 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, I agree, though I think that the story about Tony having to overcome ptsd ties better into the mandarin storyline than Tony dying does anything to do with Whiplash. Iron man 2 has no less than five different storylines, which don't relate to each other at all or just barely (Tony dying, Tony having Daddy issues, Vanko wanting revenge for something Howard did, the Government wanting to get their hands on the Iron man suit and Hammer wanting to stick it to Tony). Iron Man 3 has two (Tony's PTSD and a commentary about the fact that we desire a target for our fears and are therefore gladly ready to hate whatever is presented to us). Those two could have worked together, if Killian had been better written.

He isn't really like Syndrome at all, though. It is not like Killian really wanted revenge, he actually saw Tony's actions as something which gave him the push in the right direction.

edited 21st Mar '16 2:03:53 PM by Swanpride

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53653: Mar 21st 2016 at 2:03:36 PM

They could call him the Mandolin, named after the strings instrument.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#53654: Mar 21st 2016 at 2:05:22 PM

Read the Fraction and Gillen(who did a story about characters like Malekith trying to collect the Rings) runs from post-CW Marvel when they tried to make Iron Man into a A lister and save him from the bad publicity of the events.

His look would even work in the MCU what with all the evil business men.

edited 21st Mar '16 2:10:21 PM by LordofLore

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#53656: Mar 21st 2016 at 3:05:05 PM

No, that's because they are the well-established Nemesises of two superheroes who were much more famous and iconic than Iron Man was at the time.

And they're also just much better characters than the Mandarin and don't carry the same level of baggage.

I can think of tons of wonderful iconic stories about the Joker and Lex but I've yet to ever read a story about the Mandarin that was all that good.

In all honesty, the Mandarin stuff just feeds into what I was saying earlier about not always listening to the fans being a smart move. Just about the only real argument I see in favor of using him is "He's been around for a long time."

edited 21st Mar '16 3:06:59 PM by comicwriter

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#53657: Mar 21st 2016 at 3:55:12 PM

"Lorelei is probably the weakest Asgardian we've seen fighting and she's still able to throw people across the room."

Nope, she is able to give Lady Sif a good fight, so that is stronger than a Mook.

Elliot Randolph is the weakest Asgardian (With name), because he was a Mook.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#53658: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:06:24 PM

And they're also just much better characters than the Mandarin and don't carry the same level of baggage.

I already explained you how suggestive that was, so I won't go over it again. And just because you have yet to know good stories about the Mandarin doesn't mean there isn't any.

It's not that he's been around for a while, it's that he is one of the villlains who had the most impact in the comics. That's slightly different.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#53659: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:09:17 PM

He's had so much impact on the mythos that they were easily able to have three successful films without ever using him.

He's not that necessary. If people want to watch Yellow Peril warlords, there's a whole host of Fu Manchu films out there already.

edited 21st Mar '16 4:10:20 PM by comicwriter

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#53660: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:14:18 PM

And back to discussing the Mandarin. Oh, joy.

I won't debate this again, so I'll just synthetize my opinions on the matter:

People keep saying this but I've gotten no examples of what runs, exactly, I should be picking up in which he works in the slightest—unless you count the Armored Adventures TV series, which I'm still not convinced did an especially good job.

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin (though it has a Neo-Pulp demeanor to it, so it may come across otherwise) Iron Man Vol.3, Iron Man Vol 4.. anything Matt Fraction wrote regarding him, or, actually, the first half of Iron Man 3, in which the Mandarin shows no affiliation to any ethnicity (he sounds British and wears Western military garb. The only chinese aspect in him is the cloak) and never utters a word regarding Eastern culture, all his speeches being about how American society is corrupt and decayed. With a little more developing, he would be a functional character.

Even if his depiction is better he's still a Chinese villain named after a fucking dialect of Chinese, as though he was named by someone jabbing their finger into a paperback translation dictionary at random.

He's named after the government position, not the language. The government position is vague but in general means someone who wields a lot of political power and cerebral knowledge. That's what the character means to be.

Mandarin is interesting because he serves as a counterpoint to Iron Man in the sense of Tony Stark being a futurist, a innovator, and Mandarin is characterized as being, inherently, a man of the past, who believes in very Medievalist knowledge, who wants to throw back the world to a Mongol-ish style of Empire with him at the head, even if he coats himself with a more capitalist, corporative outlook like in the Fraction run, this is still his functioning logic deep down. Tony Stark's a superstar, Mandarin likes working in the shadows, Tony Stark uses technology and Mandarin uses magic or science that is very close to magic.

What makes the rivalriy interesting is that unlike pretty much Tony's entire rogues gallery, Mandarin is not a representative of the dark side of capitalism seeking more money and more influence (again, even if he coats himself in that superficial outlook), he's a living throwback to the age where men conquered the world by the sword. In summary, Tony Stark is a man who wants the world to go forwards, The Mandarin is a man who wants the world to go backwards and this Past vs future, magic vs science, arcane vs enlightmenet conflict is what makes their rivalry interesting.

Killian fails to achieve this because he's just yet another evil capitalist (as Justin Hammer and Obadiah Stane were before him).

That's all I'll say on the matter.

edited 21st Mar '16 4:15:21 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#53661: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:16:22 PM

When I said Loki and Thor are like a jerkjock it was because I didnt feel thor storyline is compelling, also because Loki and Thor have a very blue oni,red oni and brain and brawn going on: one uses streght and forces whiled his main táctic agaisnt something is to punch over and over it únitl is done, the other instead relies in plans,trickery and outsmarting his oponent.

But anyway I will said something: vanko wanting revenge is not the issue, is how he is going to do it, his whole plan is pretty much "wait and them atack" while all the focus was with Tony acting in self destructing way(which just mean acting like a party boy) until it was fixed by a deus ex machina.

In fact they did the oposite in iron man 3, letting the bad guy strike him and being the main storyline while Tony issues where in background, it work for the best in my opinion

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#53662: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:22:10 PM

He's had so much impact on the mythos that they were easily able to have three successful films without ever using him.

You do realize these movie are not very faithful to the mythos aside from the origin story, right?

He's not that necessary. If people want to watch Yellow Peril warlords, there's a whole host of Fu Manchu films out there already.

How many times do I have to explain he can easily be revised into something else than a racist caricature?

Anyway, Gaon summed up well what I think is appealing about the character, and I do realize talking about this is a pain. So I will just stop here and apologize for bringing up the topic again... *sigh* I really need to let that go.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#53663: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:23:15 PM

On the other hand, in Iron Man 3 the tony background event is the most compelling part of the movie but has a lackluster resolution (if it could even be called a resolution).

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#53664: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:24:28 PM

You do realize these movie are not very faithful to the mythos aside from the origin story, right?

Which just goes to once again serve my original point before I allowed myself to get drawn into this debate again: Fan rage is not really a tangible thing that Marvel or other studios really need to be concerned with.

It gets conflated with failures but the other thing that people generally miss is that most of the huge comic book movie failures that fans like to use as examples of why you shouldn't ever alter the source material were just genuinely bad films that didn't really appeal to mainstream audiences to begin with.

The successes are the same way. They're hits because they strike a chord with fans and mainstream audiences, not just some concept of "giving the fans what they want".

edited 21st Mar '16 4:25:52 PM by comicwriter

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#53665: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:25:11 PM

[up][up]You mean the PTSD that disappeared just in time for the 3rd act?

edited 21st Mar '16 4:25:26 PM by VeryMelon

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#53667: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:41:33 PM

With the PSTD I thing they manage to pull that very well, it show as Tony desire to build more armours and thining is no more han that. The villian push him out of his confort zone(well it blew out more likey) and he relies in himself.

It wasnt a perfect storyline but it self me tony stark as being more than "the likiable douche in the armour" something DC havent been capable with Batman

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#53668: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:51:41 PM

The thing is the PTSD just sort of vanishes for the third act like Very Melon said. It didn't feel like the storyline was given a proper conclusion at all, it was just Tony going "ok I have to build" or something and then it disappears for the rest of the movie. For something that was given so much build-up it felt very lackluster.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#53669: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:54:19 PM

Man, the Mandarin should've shown up in season two of Daredevil. He'd have been right at home there.

edited 21st Mar '16 4:54:25 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#53670: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:56:34 PM

[up]Speaking of which: the main argument for not using the Mandarin is that he's a racist caricature... and yet Daredevil uses a ninja Ancient Conspiracy from Japan with some evil sorcery capable of resurrecting the dead. Yeah...

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#53671: Mar 21st 2016 at 4:59:16 PM

No, the main argument against the Mandarin is that it'd get the movie Banned in China, which is one of Marvel's biggest audience pools. China loves unflattering depictions of the Japanese.tongue

edited 21st Mar '16 4:59:33 PM by comicwriter

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#53672: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:02:08 PM

Also, funnily enough, I was browsing the Iron Man 3 reviews page and found one by Gaon that basically confirms we have more or less the same opinion of the movie.

edited 21st Mar '16 5:04:59 PM by wehrmacht

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#53673: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:02:48 PM

[up][up]If that really was the main argument they wouldn't have felt the need to add a twist at the end when he already wasn't chinese anymore.

Anyway regarding what you said, I agree that pandering to the fanbase isn't necessarly good. I mean, I personally hate a specific show for doing just that. But there is such thing as a good balance. You don't need to be 100% faithful to the adaption nor to give the fans exactly what they want, but try going the opposite road and you get adaptations In Name Only that aren't necessarly better than the source material. Marvel usually is fairly good at striking balance between these two extreme... but not in this case.

Now let's just leave it at that;

[up]Yeah, I pretty much agree with this review too. Weither the Mandarin should have been there or not is besides the point- in the end, even without that, Killian was a rather weak villain.

edited 21st Mar '16 5:04:20 PM by Theokal3

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#53674: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:06:24 PM

Mandarin is not a representative of the dark side of capitalism seeking more money and more influence (again, even if he coats himself in that superficial outlook), he's a living throwback to the age where men conquered the world by the sword.

In the Avengers comic, the Mandarin tried to conquer a city with a giant floating sword.

Anyway, regarding the PTSD: I think the mistake is to think it has been resolved. Tony coped with his PTSD the same way he'd been doing all movie. He distracted himself by building things instead.

Which is actually a recommended way of dealing with it.

Distract yourself with positive activities

Pleasant recreational or work activities help distract a person from his or her memories and reactions. For example, art has been a way for many trauma survivors to express their feelings in a positive, creative way. Pleasant activities can improve your mood, limit the harm caused by PTSD, and help you rebuild your life.

But we see at the end of the movie, he's still dealing with it. Comedic though it was, the stinger was about him opening up to Bruce (another recommended coping method).

And its easy to read his reaction to Scarlet Witch's fear vision thing as tying into the ptsd.

I don't think it ever disappeared. Tony just got better with living with it.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#53675: Mar 21st 2016 at 5:09:34 PM

In the Avengers comic, the Mandarin tried to conquer a city with a giant floating sword.

... I friggin' love comics.

edited 21st Mar '16 5:09:55 PM by Theokal3


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