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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#52051: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:40:23 PM

He's probably the easiest villain to bring back should they ever choose to. Which I'm hoping they do in some capacity if they ever do Runaways, since his son is one of the main characters.

Only after the plot ended and the series started wandering around looking for stuff to do, though. The same is true of Xavin, who is also a fantastic character introduced after the series itself stopped having a reason to exist.

A Runaways film without either would be really easy to do on account of the fact that they weren't around when there was actually a story one might make a film out of.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#52052: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:41:30 PM

"The MCU excels at wasting really talented actors as lackluster villains (James Spader, Mickey Rourke, and now Corey Stoll). "

I belive Mikey said in a interview he was disapoint about Marvel handing his chararter, aparenly he want the villian to be intersting and not generic villian...andwell we already know how that end.

Marvel have problems with their villians dosent it? I think is part of their chararter focus storytelling, Vanko did nothing to tony in the entire film and Malekith barely even know thor so they come as generic, instead Pierce Hydra and Loki have a conection with the hero or a main chararter and they are the best villians so far.

I just hope they dont blew out with Thanos.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#52053: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:41:45 PM

Regarding Zemo I'm going to guess he is related to someone from HYDRA.

Even though HYDRA has been sort of vanquished, so to speak, it left a legacy that is still complicating our characters' lives.

I will say that his character is very much a product of the Cinematic Universe and all that has occurred within that universe up to this point.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#52054: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:44:14 PM

No "sort of". Hydra should be vanquished.

They've been picked apart piece by piece in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and been utterly crushed into ash in Age of Ultron. In both film and television, they've done nothing but get slaughtered, lose bases, get slaughtered some more, have all their top leadership die, and then fail and fail and fail again.

Yes, yes, "cut off two heads," but the protagonists have cut off so many heads at this point that they're on the verge of overstaying their welcome. If Zemo isn't Hydra's last hurrah, they're going to become the new Loki.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:44:36 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#52055: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:45:58 PM

[up][up][up]Yes, that's more or less it. I don't necessarily think the villain needs a super personal connection to the hero to be good, but the focus on the main character above everything else is part of the reason the villains don't have as much space to flesh out.

This ends up kind of being a mixed bag, because if your main character isn't extremely compelling and/or doesn't have a meaningful and satisfying arc in his own right your movie just kind of falls into a middle ground like a lot of the marvel films. I think they only completely nailed that twice, with Tony and Steve. I don't dislike the other characters by any means, but I am not as invested in them.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:46:24 PM by wehrmacht

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#52056: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:47:23 PM

The creators of Runaways did say they regretted resolving the initial plot so fast, mostly because they didn't think they'd get to finish it.

There's no reason the adaptation has to have the same six starting kids. Especially if they go the TV route they'll probably want to switch the roster up enough that it's not certain who the mole is this time around.

It's a shame that Xavin is a rights issue. Perhaps they could swing it so that they're not a skrull. I am fond of the character even if I think their genderfluidity is a bad example of alien otherness being used as an excuse for why their gender identity is valid. Silly MARVEL, their are humans who identify as Genderfluid and their valid without stupid space elf culture.

Though if Loki Agent of Asguard is anything to go by, MARVEL has got a far better grasp on genderfluidity now.

Philcoulson I do not think of myself as a king I think of my from From shadows Since: May, 2015 Relationship Status: Abstaining
I do not think of myself as a king I think of my
#52057: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:49:20 PM

wild mass guess Ultron will fuse with Arnim Zolawild mass guess

All I see I conquer
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#52058: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:49:23 PM

If they ever adapt Runaways, please no Klara.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#52059: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:49:40 PM

About Xavin I will say this. Other Skrulls in Marvel have definitely shown gender preference. In Secret Invasion, dude Skrulls imitated dudes. Lady Skrulls imitated ladies. In the 80s? Silver Surfer book, there was a Skrull that was pissed because he was stuck in a female body.

Xavin being gender fluid (SHUT UP WHEDON) is a Xavin thing that happens to be aided by being a shapeshifting alien, not a shapeshifting alien thing.

Xavin is also rad.

[up] She insinuated Tigra was a prostitute once. Tigra retorted that full body fur coat and clothing and LA weather do not mix. It was a silly moment.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:50:59 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#52061: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:51:29 PM

Klara is the 9 year old sexual abuse victim from the turn of the century who controls plants right?

Yeah I purposefully didn't read that far into Runaways.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#52062: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:51:34 PM

[up][up][up]I always thought he made Xavin a girl because of the Author Appeal. He clearly likes lesbians.

I do think they might have planned on including Xavin at one point. Way back when the movie almost happened Keke Palmer was in talks for one of the roles, and unless they were race lifting Gert, Xavin was the only one who fit her appearance (sometimes).

[up][up]She's from a less enlightened time and had a bunch of face palm worthy views about gay people and minorities. Obviously it's understandable given where she's from, but it made her The Scrappy to most of the fans very quickly.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:53:02 PM by comicwriter

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#52063: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:53:31 PM

Ah, okay yeah I see why some wouldn't want her to be used.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#52064: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:53:54 PM

[up][up][up]

Yep. She was generally annoying, didn't have much to offer anyway, and the most memorable stuff she did was some hamfisted social commentary. The best she could hope for was to be a lesser Molly anyway.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:54:39 PM by AlleyOop

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#52065: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:53:57 PM

I'm sure Whedon had his reasons. But they're probably dumb reasons?

I just overall did not care for his arc.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#52066: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:54:28 PM

Trouble is, in Runaways itself, Xavin talking about genderfluidity made it sound like it was retconning in this thing about all Skrull having a fluid gender. Which I would prefer didn't stick. (I'm glad it's so easily refuted though)

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#52067: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:55:21 PM

I always took Xavin as agendered rather than genderfluid. IIRC, it's not that Xavin sometimes feels like being one gender or the other, it's that Xavin doesn't really care about gender and will adopt whichever form suits the situation. I might be remembering wrong, but that's how I recall it; the other characters made a big deal out of "Xavin is really female!" while Xavin was just being female because it made them happy.

I might be misremembering, though. And, as pointed out, that's a Xavin thing and not a Skrull thing.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#52068: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:55:57 PM

Not really. Marvel just chooses to focus on the heroes first and foremost and on its villains second. It is actually an old Disney tradition (even though they already did it before they became part of Disney). I mean, who are the greatest Disney villains? Maleficent, Ursula, The Evil Queen, Scar, Frolo, Hook, Cruella De Ville? And what do we know about them? Nothing at all. They are nothing more than a great design, an understandable motivation and a great voice actor. That's it. You don't need more for a villain. And whoever came up with the idea that villains need a backstory is an idiot. Most villains are better the less we know about their past (cough Darth Vader cough). Sure you can do something different along the line of Loki - but you don't HAVE to. Villains like the Red Skull, Ronan or Ultron are exactly what they need to be.

The problem with Malekith is not that he lacks a backstory. The problem is that he is a pussy. He encounters Thor three times, and each times he only gets away victorious with the help of his henchmen. The Cursed was more threatening than him. And they both have boring designs which are not the least bit threatening. The problem with Whiplash is not that his character isn't layered enough. The problem is that his motivation and plans makes zero sense. Yes, I get that he wants revenge because he thinks that Tony got the life he felt he deserved, but not only is his method to do so needless convoluted, he encounters Tony without his suit in a surprise attack and barely did anything to him. Not to mention that he knows that Tony is dying, so why bother attacking him at all? Especially stupid is it "I let explode myself" endgame. If Pepper hadn't been in the danger zone, Tony wouldn't have been in risk at all, since he could fly clear of the blast in seconds.

Edit: Okay, everyone was posting while I wrote this novel...this was an answer to the villain question.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:57:40 PM by Swanpride

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#52069: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:56:27 PM

Yeah. The stuff Xavin says really doesn't apply to most Skrulls.

If I wanted to justify, I'd say that he was worried how humans view genderfluidity and was going 'no its cool, its totes an alien thing, also i'm very attractive'

If Xavin had stayed around, I think they should have had her interact with a genderfluid human. And perhaps be a bit insensitive at first at how that works without the ability to shapeshift.

Alas and alack.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#52070: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:56:42 PM

[up][up][up]Actually yeah that interpretation is truer to the text. I realise now that Xavin is agendered.

I also apriciated Xavin saying that they weren't a lesbian, because they're not exactly female. That's the sort of inside I wouldn't expect from a cis author in the naughties.

edited 25th Feb '16 12:59:19 PM by Whowho

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#52071: Feb 25th 2016 at 12:58:11 PM

I might have to go back and reread.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#52072: Feb 25th 2016 at 1:00:28 PM

My copies are currently in my parents loft, I'm feeling mighty nostalgic for them though.

Runaways is what got me into printed MARVEL comics.

[up] I think Xavin does describe their gender is fluid, but I think they meant their genderpresentation. Like, they don't act like presenting female all the time for their relationship is a bother to them. That's more inline with someone who is agendered than Genderfluid. Otherwise you'd think they would get bothered by presenting female when feeling male.

edited 25th Feb '16 1:03:37 PM by Whowho

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#52073: Feb 25th 2016 at 1:01:09 PM

It really was ahead of its time.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#52074: Feb 25th 2016 at 1:02:16 PM

Vanko's entire plan on Monocco was to ruin Tony's reputation by showing that yes, people could copy his tech. That's the entire message behind his speech about making God bleed.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#52075: Feb 25th 2016 at 1:02:49 PM

I'm actually not overly bothered by the race thing, but that's because I value Danny more for his interracial marrage with Misty Knight than anything else.
They aren't married or even in a relationship anymore.


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