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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#51451: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:58:25 AM

Insane is a word with several definitions, both general and contextual. Using it in a general sense does not necessarily imply that someone is referring to medical or legal insanity, nor should it be to expected to, but it does get confusing.

Either way, the word Banner used was "crazy."

edited 15th Feb '16 11:59:38 AM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#51452: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:02:01 PM

The way pop culture uses them is interchangeable so it really doesn't make a difference in this context.

edited 15th Feb '16 12:02:29 PM by comicwriter

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#51453: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:02:24 PM

If I were to sit down and wrangle amateur psychological diagnosis for Marvel villains, I'd guess Loki has something akin to Borderline Personality Disorder, due his fear of abandonement, often aggressive and rash behavior extreme thoughts, and hidden self-loathing;

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51454: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:05:57 PM

Insane is a word with several definitions, both general and contextual. Using it in a general sense does not necessarily imply that someone is referring to medical or legal insanity, nor should it be to expected to, but it does get confusing.

Either way, the word Banner used was "crazy."

<.< It's a peeve of mine. I live with a paranoid schizophrenic. It agitates me to no end to see mental illness constantly conflated with murderous, megalomaniacal, or otherwise selfish behavior - not only in fiction but on the news as well, such as when the issue of gun control as it relates to our recent rash of shootings is sidestepped in favor of, "It's all the fault of the mentally ill! We should persecute them so they can't shoot people anymore!" despite few indications that mental illness was even a factor in most of the shootings.

So when I see claims that Loki killed 80 people because he's ambiguously "insane" and not because Loki is a murderous asshole whose previous, "non-insane" appearance featured an attempt to commit actual genocide, it rubs me the wrong way because it's contributing to the social acceptance that all mentally ill people are time bombs waiting to explode and kill a bunch of children.

edited 15th Feb '16 12:07:56 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51455: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:13:43 PM

Loki's problems are a little bit more complex. Let's not forget that Thor originally also thought that killing Frost giants was not a big deal.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51456: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:16:27 PM

Context matters.

Thor was on a mission of retaliation. He went straight to their king and demanded answers for a Frost Giant insurgency into his lands. He went about things the wrong way and learning humility was a key part of his arc, but he didn't just touch down on Jotunheim and set out to murder every Jotun with his bare hands.

Loki attempted to murder an entire planet of sapient lifeforms in cold blood in the hopes that it would make his daddy proud. His crimes in Avengers are actually a step down on the atrocity scale, but nobody cares about his attempted genocide because What Measure Is a Non-Human?

edited 15th Feb '16 12:17:44 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#51457: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:27:33 PM

I googled "Loki cats" and was not disappointed.◊

I want that in the movie now.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#51458: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:28:40 PM

Markedly it's an attempted genocide that still kind of happened. When we cut to Jotunheim we actually see their world being slowly destroyed by the wave of the Bifrost.

A great way of not making it not seem like What Measure Is a Non-Human? is to have a factor in Ragnarok Laufey's successor (whoever that might be) wanting Loki to pay for his crimes (after they discover Odin's actually Loki).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#51459: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:37:22 PM

[up][up]I object on the basis that we need dogs in Asgard first.

edited 15th Feb '16 12:40:10 PM by LordofLore

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51460: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:37:28 PM

To be honest, I would prefer them doing a Loki movie and making it about dealing with his heritage instead of squeezing this in as a subplot in a movie which already has two heroes to focus on.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51461: Feb 15th 2016 at 12:41:02 PM

Markedly it's an attempted genocide that still kind of happened. When we cut to Jotunheim we actually see their world being slowly destroyed by the wave of the Bifrost.

A great way of not making it not seem like What Measure Is a Non-Human? is to have a factor in Ragnarok Laufey's successor (whoever that might be) wanting Loki to pay for his crimes (after they discover Odin's actually Loki).

They did a decent job of that in Loki's trial. It's a short scene, so there's not a lot of time to approach the issue, but I like how Odin handles it. Loki wants to make it just about Earth,

  • "I went down down to Midgard to rule the people of Earth as a benevolent God. Just like you."

but Odin refuses to be baited and uses broad speech in his accusations.

  • "Do you not truly feel the gravity of your crimes? Wherever you go there is war, ruin and death."
  • "Thor must strive to undo the damage you have done. He’ll bring order to the nine realms and then, yes, he will be King."

Odin's words make it clear he's not just upset about the fuss on Midgard and that the Nine Realms are in disarray because of the overall effects of Loki's actions and choices. Using the Bifrost as a Death Star probably has more to do with why the Nine Realms are in such upheaval than the Chitauri invasion of Earth.

edited 15th Feb '16 12:43:01 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#51463: Feb 15th 2016 at 1:20:06 PM

Considering the lack of focus on Earth it'll probably be a small cameo at most.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51464: Feb 15th 2016 at 1:23:11 PM

Or a buddy cop flick! Fury and Banner driving around the Nine Realms in a pickup truck, running into trouble.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#51465: Feb 15th 2016 at 1:26:00 PM

"Thor was on a mission of retaliation. He went straight to their king and demanded answers for a Frost Giant insurgency into his lands."

But Thor was expecting things go out of hand and in a way he wanted it, in a "we come arounf, beat some heads and leave, That would teach them" Thor is bully or even worst in that scene

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51466: Feb 15th 2016 at 1:36:20 PM

He's definitely a bully. The Jotun insurgency wounded his ego, so his plan was to walk in and throw his weight around until Laufey pleads forgiveness and swears to never do it again, then go home.

It was a politically f*cktarded decision that risked out-and-out war between their nations, which is why Odin sent him on his mission to learn some humility. However, it's still a far cry from attempting to murder the entire planet in cold blood via apocalyptic space laser.

edited 15th Feb '16 1:37:49 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#51467: Feb 15th 2016 at 1:46:18 PM

I like that Punisher called Daredevil a "half-measure". It's exactly what Stick told him about his non-killing code.

"Half-measures, Matty."

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#51468: Feb 15th 2016 at 2:27:45 PM

Jackson only has 1 more movie in his contract if he shows up in Thor 3, right? Do we expect him to die in IW 1 to show that things are getting real? It's SLJ so him signing a new deal wouldn't be out of the question.

edited 15th Feb '16 2:30:10 PM by LordofLore

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#51469: Feb 15th 2016 at 2:35:19 PM

A bunch of MCU actors extended their contracts a while ago, he might've been among them since he seems to be one of the guys doing it for Awesome, Dear Boy.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51470: Feb 15th 2016 at 2:36:14 PM

Heck, he even showed up in Agents of SHIELD twice.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#51471: Feb 15th 2016 at 2:57:59 PM

I do think narratively speaking Nick Fury is one of the characters prime to kill off. He's a Badass Normal and he tends to act as the team's "boss" (in the sense he tends to act as a backer of sorts), but he isn't the main hero of any franchise. So killing him off would both be dramatically heavy, possible and financially feasible.

I think at least some two or three major characters should die over the course of Infinity War. It's a war, and one for the fate of the universe. There should be casualties.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#51472: Feb 15th 2016 at 3:15:54 PM

He's already had one fakeout before, so him getting killed off even if it doesn't stick wouldn't have much impact.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#51473: Feb 15th 2016 at 3:30:19 PM

I think it depends on how they play it. Using his death to signal how screwed everything is, and someone fearfully asks Fury if he can't fake his death again, and he clarifies that no, this time he can't. This time he's going down with the ship, there's no grand The Chessmaster ol' Fury scheme or ace in the hole to save him. He ran out of ways out and there's no Xanatos Gambit at play anywhere. Fury, after spending his entire life playing long cons and hiding behind layers of secrets, has ran out of cards to play for the first time, so he accepts his defeat and makes his last play.

It'd at least be interesting seeing Fury like that, facing something he can't outplan.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#51474: Feb 15th 2016 at 3:42:12 PM

The Jotun is a race which is always evil (Loki isn't exception)

Odin is also a hypocrite, because he felt proud that his father had killed all the dark elves.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#51475: Feb 15th 2016 at 3:57:58 PM

I don't think they're gonna kill off Fury. They already played that plot card in Winter Soldier even if it was faked.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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