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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51426: Feb 15th 2016 at 8:51:41 AM

I am a big fan of how Marvel build up Hydra through the whole MCU, but there are a few things which should happen without their input. Otherwise the whole matter becomes lazy writing.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#51427: Feb 15th 2016 at 9:29:09 AM

The point of Castle's family being killed in the crossfire of a mob war is that there is no one specific person or organization responsible for it. If, say, Baron Germanschire of Hydra had them killed for lulz, then Castle could set out on a vengeance quest against Baron Germanschire, get his revenge, and move on with his life.

That they were killed by random, violent crime resulted in Castle declaring war on the abstract concept of random, violent crime. Making their deaths intentional instead of accidental undermines the principle of the Punisher as an ongoing vigilante lifestyle instead of a one-time cowboy film.

I feel the same way whenever writers try to make Joe Chill into the center of some big conspiracy to wipe out the Waynes, rather than a trigger-happy nobody who panicked.

For characters like Batman and Punisher's crusades against crime to resonate, they need to have been created by crime and corruption in general. Giving them a specific person who is behind the evil in their lives undermines them.

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#51428: Feb 15th 2016 at 9:34:47 AM

"I'd ask why, exactly, a choice is necessary. You can be both."

But it is inconsistent, a character can not be an anti-villain in a film, only to be a straight-villain in the next, without explanation.

Something I would like to happen in Thor: Ragnarok Thor: Loki must is in the same side in the whole movie.

But he must doesn't change sides at half movie.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#51429: Feb 15th 2016 at 9:37:18 AM

Sure they can.

Its very circumstantial.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51430: Feb 15th 2016 at 9:40:28 AM

People are frequently inconsistent. A man might pass a homeless person on a corner begging for change two days in a row.

  • The first day, the man is pissed off and grumpy. He's just been in an argument with his girlfriend and it's still weighing on him. He's been stuck in traffic and has a back cramp. He's not a very happy man and when the homeless person asks for change, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. He flips out on the guy and screams at him before driving off.
  • The second day, the man is excited because he got a raise yesterday and saw the series premiere of his favorite show and made up with his girlfriend. Everything is wonderful. He's so excited that when he sees the homeless person, he shoves $20 at him just to share the good feeling!

In his second appearance, Loki's lost everything. He's bitter at Thor and Odin and, most of all, himself. He's been broken by Thanos and The Other to the point that he accepts physical torture without complaint. He may or may not be under mental influence by the scepter. He's under a lot of very different circumstances from his first appearance.

edited 15th Feb '16 9:42:13 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#51431: Feb 15th 2016 at 9:49:17 AM

His speech in Germany definitely gives the impression that he's punching down because punching up isn't an option.

Or like he's justifying his position by forcing it down the ladder.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51432: Feb 15th 2016 at 9:55:35 AM

Also, Joss Whedon pointed out that he's changed because "he's seen some stuff" while traveling through space. That changed him. And then, in The Dark World, it's obvious that he's not back to being the old Loki he was in Thor, but he's moved on from being a straight up villain.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51433: Feb 15th 2016 at 9:59:36 AM

Let's examine Loki's appearances:

In the first movie, he wants daddy's love. So he designs an elaborate scheme in order to look better than Thor in Odin's eyes, not understanding that those actions would alienated Odin even further. When his plans fails, he tries to kill himself (we really shouldn't forget the detail).

In the second movie, after being with Thanos, his memories are wraped. Weather he is under control or not, he accuses Thor of having him thrown down the bifrost (and we all know that this isn't what happened). He is convinced that nobody ever loved him, and lashes out to everyone.

In the third movie we see him after having spend over a year in Jail. That is a lot of time to heal at least physically. Plus, there is at least one person who does constantly show concern about him, and that is Frigga. Even though he is in denial, it is obvious that he is well aware that she loves him, and he loves her back. Enough to want revenge when she is killed - even Thor knows that (what Thor doesn't know but Loki might deep down is that he is partly responsible for her fate). And he is able to hash out some of his differences with Thor when they go on a trip together. While he does take the Throne in the disguise of Odin, we shouldn't forget that he had the best excuse to throw Thor into prison for disobeying orders. He doesn't do it, though, instead he allows Thor to go to earth. Perhaps partly because Thor defends him from Odin.

So Loki's motivations and circumstances change. There are a couple of aspects which are consistent. For one, he hates frost giants. Being one herself, he is convinced that nobody could love a monster like him. It is internalized racism as it finest. Two, he always wants attention. No matter what he does, after a life-time in Thor's shadow he wants to shine, one way or another. Three, he actually loves Thor. Should he ever kill him in one of his rages or per accident, Loki would most likely go even more crazy out of grief. Four, it is always difficult to figure out Loki's plans. The one in The Avengers looks fairly straightforward, but I am still not sure if he didn't get what he wanted in the end. If Thanos tortured him, than he managed to get away from under his thumb.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51434: Feb 15th 2016 at 10:00:18 AM

Loki was totally still a straight villain in Dark World until his mom died. I believe the sincerity in his grief and mourning; I don't think he expected that outcome when he gave Kurse instructions for how to reach Jane. He was just being a spiteful bastard and hoping to screw Thor over by getting his girlfriend fridged.

So I think his grief was legitimate, but he's also pragmatic. He saw an opportunity to fake his death and took it. We won't fully understand his motivations until Ragnarok comes out and we have a clear answer on what he's done and why.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#51435: Feb 15th 2016 at 10:13:40 AM

I don't think Loki knew about who Kurse was at the time, or about the Dark Elves invading Asgard and going after Jane, since he had no way of knowing about either. He just saw a warrior who could really screw up his father and brother's day and sent him where he could do the most damage, away from where everyone else was being mowed down by security.

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#51436: Feb 15th 2016 at 10:14:43 AM

[up]

There is also the ambiguous situation.

Loki killed his adoptive father?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51437: Feb 15th 2016 at 10:20:24 AM

I doubt it. We will have to wait and see.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#51438: Feb 15th 2016 at 10:36:02 AM

The point of Castle's family being killed in the crossfire of a mob war is that there is no one specific person or organization responsible for it. If, say, Baron Germanschire of Hydra had them killed for lulz, then Castle could set out on a vengeance quest against Baron Germanschire, get his revenge, and move on with his life. That they were killed by random, violent crime resulted in Castle declaring war on the abstract concept of random, violent crime. Making their deaths intentional instead of accidental undermines the principle of the Punisher as an ongoing vigilante lifestyle instead of a one-time cowboy film. Also, having them killed by terrorists such as Hydra would set Castle against terrorism, not crime. Also also, "They did it 'cause they're evil" is the worst justification for any villainous action. Having a bunch of evil dudes kill a veteran's family just 'cause that's what evil thinks is fun is terrible writing.

I'm confused are you praising Castle's origin story or condemning it. Cause that last sentence describes the mob criminals that killed the Castles to a tee.

Re: Loki. I've said this before but my issue with Loki's motivations in the movies is that we're never really shown him being poorly treated by the Asgardians. For one thing, most of the supposedly poor treatment towards Loki and favoritism shown towards Thor is something that we are told, not shown. It really boils down to two major scenes - one where he is playfully chided by Volstagg ("Silver tongue turned to lead") and another when Sif says Loki has always been jealous of Thor (which isn't inaccurate).

Then we find out that Loki was the one who lead the Frost Giants into the weapons room on Thor's coronation. Loki apparently did this to see how his brother would react, to determine if he was worthy of the throne. Now, Thor's reaction was foolhardy, but he did have a point; if the Frost Giants found a way to get into Asgard undetected, what was o stop them from doing it again?

And Loki's punishment was pretty light compared to what happens to him in the myths and the comics (having snake venom poured into his eyes) given the guy tries to commit genocide twice. In TDK, he's locked in a well-appointed room with plenty of books and a comfy bed where he can’t use his extremely powerful magic to hurt anyone else.

edited 15th Feb '16 10:40:31 AM by windleopard

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#51439: Feb 15th 2016 at 10:41:27 AM

Odin does observe he'd have executed (which is, honestly, what he deserves) Loki if Frigga didn't beg him to keep Loki alive.

For that matter I'm fine with Loki's motivation being more of his own psychological issues projecting things that aren't there than actual mistreatment. I never really liked the trend of demonizing the entirety of Asgard (or at least Odin) to justify Loki being a dick.

edited 15th Feb '16 10:42:46 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51440: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:12:18 AM

While I do think that it would have been better if they had left in the deleted scene of Thor and Loki talking to each other before the ceremony, I think it is pretty clear what the issue is. You have the scene at the beginning in which Odin tells his sons that they were both born to be kings and then you have the coronation scene, in which Thor is the one who gets all the praise and not Loki. He is wielding the hammer, he is applauded to - meanwhile Loki doesn't even have friends on his own. It is pretty clear that the warrior three are mostly Thor's friends and he is the tag-along brother. It is also mentioned at one point that Loki has helped Thor out of trouble in the past. I honestly don't need anyone to spell it out to see what is the issue there.

Loki is wrong about a lot of things, but he is right that he was always in Thor's shadow, with one exception, his magic. And it is obvious from the behaviour of the Warrior three that magic has a lower reputation than being a warrior.

It is also pretty clear that Loki doesn't really want the throne, but in his mind, he equals having the throne with being in favour of Odin.

edited 15th Feb '16 11:13:41 AM by Swanpride

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#51441: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:26:59 AM

For not to mention that Loki is a Squishy Wizard , in a society that appreciated more the physical strength.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#51442: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:39:03 AM

Banner says Loki is probably insane anyway.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51443: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:41:25 AM

Heroes always say that. Unless they follow it with a psychiatric diagnosis of a precise mental illness, "X villain is insane!" is a meaningless sentiment.

"Because insanity" has never been anyone's motivation ever. Various illnesses can influence a person's thought process, but there's still always a reason that makes sense to them. A man does not go to the belltower with a rifle because schizophrenia. He goes to the belltower because the cat made a very reasonable and persuasive argument about the state of mankind.

And, on that note, "because insanity" is a poor diagnosis anyway. It is far more frequently the case that a person guilty of a heinous crime did it because he's an asshole. Not because of mental illness. The mentally ill get a bum rap. That some people are so incapable of understanding why a person would behave in a selfish and cruel fashion apart from there being something physically broken in that person's brain is just a sign that Good Cannot Comprehend Evil.

edited 15th Feb '16 11:45:24 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#51444: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:45:35 AM

Banner calls him crazy, not insane.

Through from a trope standpoint, it's worth noting that You're Insane! uses a non-medical definition of "insane," more along the lines of it's original/laymans definition of deranged or vaguely unsound.

edited 15th Feb '16 11:47:22 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51445: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:50:56 AM

Banner also says that his brain is a bag of cats.

Which still isn't an official diagnosis but it's a hilarious mental image if taken literally.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51446: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:52:35 AM

Considering that Loki fell through the void and was in Thanos hands after it, it is entirely possible that he is insane. Thus said, his insanity doesn't have to be permanent. Currently Bucky is pretty much insane, too, but I guess we all hope that he will recover.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#51448: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:53:46 AM

Eh. I'm inclined to agree with that diagnosis. Loki's insane. I can roll with it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51449: Feb 15th 2016 at 11:54:07 AM

"Insane" is a buzzword. What's his illness? What specific mental disease or disability is he suffering from? What dysfunction of mental faculties is causing his behavior?

edited 15th Feb '16 11:54:47 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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