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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#51401: Feb 14th 2016 at 9:09:29 PM

Something that I find curious about Loki, is that writers don't can decide whether Loki is a monster or a sympathetic character.

  • Thor: Anti-villain
  • Avengers: Monster.
  • Thor: The Dark World: Nominal Hero

In Ragnarok, Loki may well be member of a Big Bad Duumvirate along with Hela, or one of the heroes who try to stop her.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#51402: Feb 14th 2016 at 9:14:57 PM

I kind of want Loki to make an actual heroic sacrifice so we can get a Kid Loki movie. The villain could even be Loki.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#51403: Feb 14th 2016 at 9:51:41 PM

is that writers don't can decide whether Loki is a monster or a sympathetic character.
I'd ask why, exactly, a choice is necessary. You can be both.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#51404: Feb 14th 2016 at 9:56:44 PM

[up][up]A Kid Loki movie would make all the money. You'd only need one lead, Tom Hiddleston, who has proven popular, and you could explore is dark, brooding, leather covered past.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51405: Feb 14th 2016 at 10:15:39 PM

Well, Tom Hiddleston can't actually play Kid Loki because he's not, you know, a kid.

edited 14th Feb '16 10:15:47 PM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#51406: Feb 14th 2016 at 10:18:01 PM

Dawson Casting at its finest!

Seriously though, in a Kid Loki movie he would play Ikol, but either way he wouldn't be the lead. He'd be more of an Enemy Within Big Bad.

I don't know what teams he was or wasn't on in the comics, but a Young Avengers movie with Kid Loki, Amadeus Cho and Cassie Lang (plus two or three more) would be an interesting Phase 4 or 5 movie.

edited 14th Feb '16 10:22:03 PM by KnownUnknown

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#51407: Feb 14th 2016 at 10:52:26 PM

I'd rather see Amadeus do a teamup with Hercules than shoehorn him into the Young Avengers.

For those guys, just do the team as is. Loki, America, Teddy and Billy, Kate, Nohvarr and Prodigy.

edited 14th Feb '16 10:54:13 PM by Eagal

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#51408: Feb 14th 2016 at 11:05:32 PM

Doesn't help that there apparently were scenes in Avengers implying Loki was a more complicated than he seemed that got cut out, or the fact that some of his lines seem like they were written to set up a punchline, regardless of the effect they'd have on his characterization. I'd lean towards Anti-Villain because of that.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51409: Feb 14th 2016 at 11:23:39 PM

As long as they can get Hiddleston, they should use him. There is time for a kid-loki.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#51410: Feb 15th 2016 at 2:06:55 AM

Something that I find curious about Loki, is that writers don't can decide whether Loki is a monster or a sympathetic character.

Easy, he's both. What people fail to understand is that you don't need to be a Complete Monster to commit atrocities. Loki has a sympathetic backstory and you can genuinely feel sorry for him on some aspects, but that doesn't make what he did in New York forgivable. That's the difference between Anti-Hero and Anti-Villain: the former is more inclined toward the hero side of the balance (jerky and can be morally ambiguous, but usually does the right thing in the end), while the latter is more toward the villain side (sympathetic, but still commit unjustified horrible acts). Now, the question is in which direction he will evolve later on.

edited 15th Feb '16 2:09:24 AM by Theokal3

yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#51411: Feb 15th 2016 at 6:33:05 AM

Nevermind.

edited 15th Feb '16 8:36:10 AM by yellowturtle

Crow: There's a plot?
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#51412: Feb 15th 2016 at 6:38:47 AM

Genderfluid teen Loki is my personal dream.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#51414: Feb 15th 2016 at 6:57:13 AM

I feel like it might've been a bit more clever and accurate to say "No bad deed goes unpunished".

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#51415: Feb 15th 2016 at 7:05:13 AM

Something that I find curious about Loki, is that writers don't can decide whether Loki is a monster or a sympathetic character.

While you can be both, Loki's issue here is being written inconsistently between 3 films first and foremost. It's the reason I can't take his "depth" seriously.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51416: Feb 15th 2016 at 7:33:09 AM

Punisher will likely be the main antagonist, but not the villain, if that makes sense. There'll likely be a common villain they're both against, but most of the personal conflict will come from their differing methods rather than with the common villain themself.

Which would be a good way to do it. It's similar to a pitch idea I had about a Punisher TV series I talked about a while back, where the focus would be on police investigators tasked with apprehending the Punisher and a three-pronged conflict between the police, the Punisher, and organized crime. But with DareDevil instead of police investigators.

That's the best way to do a Punisher story, really. As a Static Character, Castle gets boring when too much focus is placed on him. It can be cool to see his methods, preparation, and strategies, but as a character, you always know what he's going to do. He's as much of a character as, say, a tornado in a disaster movie; destruction porn aside, what makes him interesting is how he influences the lives of other characters forced to react to him.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51417: Feb 15th 2016 at 7:37:47 AM

[up][up]I don't think that Loki is inconsistently written. We are just still lacking the puzzle piece how exactly he sees Thanos.

[up] Which is exactly the reason why I don't think a Punisher series is a good idea.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51419: Feb 15th 2016 at 7:50:40 AM

[up]

He is right, though. Saying that Marvel takes itself serious in their movies is ridiculous. It takes the comic material serious instead of acting ashamed of it, but that is not the same. Marvel has never been afraid to crack a joke or subvert good old comic book tropes. "I am Iron Man" being the most famous example of it, but by far not the only one.

edited 15th Feb '16 7:53:14 AM by Swanpride

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#51420: Feb 15th 2016 at 7:52:40 AM

-like Fox did with Guardians by green-lighting Deadpool-

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51421: Feb 15th 2016 at 7:53:42 AM

[up]Yeah, sorry, I skipped the last line initially. I don't think that he is taking credit, though. He is very clear about the passion of the creators behind it making it a success.

edited 15th Feb '16 7:54:34 AM by Swanpride

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#51422: Feb 15th 2016 at 8:27:41 AM

So are we still against the idea of The Punisher's family getting killed by off-duty HYDRA goons who wanted to kill a Navy veteran's family because it's fun? Or by followers of Fisk?

(Just to clarify, I know Frank's family got killed by mobsters because they saw things they shouldn't have seen. It's just part of me still thinks the whole getting HYDRA goons to do the deed would be an ok way of meshing the Netflix shows with the rest of the MCU.)

Also, Elektra-focused trailer in 10 days! Just the way she said "Hello, Matthew" in the end makes me think Elodie's Elektra is gonna blow Jennifer Garner's Elektra out of the water.

edited 15th Feb '16 8:29:43 AM by TargetmasterJoe

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#51423: Feb 15th 2016 at 8:29:49 AM

The point of Castle's family being killed in the crossfire of a mob war is that there is no one specific person or organization responsible for it. If, say, Baron Germanschire of Hydra had them killed for lulz, then Castle could set out on a vengeance quest against Baron Germanschire, get his revenge, and move on with his life.

That they were killed by random, violent crime resulted in Castle declaring war on the abstract concept of random, violent crime. Making their deaths intentional instead of accidental undermines the principle of the Punisher as an ongoing vigilante lifestyle instead of a one-time cowboy film.

Also, having them killed by terrorists such as Hydra would set Castle against terrorism, not crime.

Also also, "They did it 'cause they're evil" is the worst justification for any villainous action. Having a bunch of evil dudes kill a veteran's family just 'cause that's what evil thinks is fun is terrible writing.

edited 15th Feb '16 8:32:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#51424: Feb 15th 2016 at 8:45:48 AM

I think there are better ways to tie in the MCU as a whole. Whatever shenanigans The Hand are up to in Hell's Kitchen might be a better route to go if we are talking major story arcs.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#51425: Feb 15th 2016 at 8:49:26 AM

Plus the whole point of Punisher's family being killed was something the law should have stopped. That's what destroys his faith in the system and leads him to believe that the only way to stop crime is to murder the people who do it.

Shadowy assassins working for a Nazi super science paramilitary organization isn't really something that fits that.


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