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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#51101: Feb 9th 2016 at 7:52:32 AM

[up]I'm pretty sure there would be an unending number of watchers at this rate.tongue

The biggest watcher is of course, Uatu.

edited 9th Feb '16 7:56:47 AM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#51102: Feb 9th 2016 at 10:04:13 AM

The fundamental problem with the "Who watches the Watcher" logic train is that there actually are people who watch the watcher. Government works on a system of checks and balances. Everyone answers to somebody.

The idea that superheroes work better anonymously only works because of the trappings of the genre: it works because we know that superheroes will always make right choices, act as flawless moral authorities, and never falter. Spider-Man doesn't have to report his activities because we know Spider-Man will never freak out, murder a black teenager, and then try to claim that he was coming at him with a knife. We know that Iron Man will never blow up a group of Iraqis who were threatening his corporate profits and then lie and say they were terrorists.

We can say yes, our heroes should be allowed to act without any oversight but their own unfailing morals because we know that those heroes will never cross those moral lines. In fact, we trust their morals higher than government or police because government and police in superhero media are wicked, corrupt, sinister forces who constantly try to murder our heroes out of jealousy or commit genocide on minorities via giant murderbot.

This goes right back to the fundamental flaw of assuming the Pro-Regs would be the sympathetic side: every aspect of the superhero world is hand-crafted to make the entire concept of KGB-esque secret police seem like a valid and justifiable principle that only tyrants and murderers would have a problem with.

In addition, it also largely depends on what the Superheroes in question are actually doing. The Avengers aren't a police force, they are more a group of soldiers who defend the world from attackers. Spider-man doesn't swing around because he wants to beat up someone, he acts in the defence of people. There is actually nothing illegal about what Spider-man does.

There's no such thing as premeditated self-defense/defense of other. There is a fine line between vigilantism and civilian's arrest and every superhero ever written crosses that line. Defending yourself and others is something you do when crime occurs and you happen to be in the vicinity of it. Vigilantism is when you go out of your way to seek out and find crime so that you can intervene with violence.

Every time a superhero follows a police siren to a crime scene or listens to a police scanner or even just goes out in costume and patrols for trouble, they are engaging in vigilantism.

edited 9th Feb '16 10:05:14 AM by TobiasDrake

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51103: Feb 9th 2016 at 10:45:49 AM

But the Avengers actually do have some checks in place...they control each other. It is basically the same system the police uses.

Also, if we see the Avengers as "world police", who should hold the reins? Certainly not the USA.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51104: Feb 9th 2016 at 10:50:10 AM

The idea that superheroes work better anonymously only works because of the trappings of the genre: it works because we know that superheroes will always make right choices, act as flawless moral authorities, and never falter. Spider-Man doesn't have to report his activities because we know Spider-Man will never freak out, murder a black teenager, and then try to claim that he was coming at him with a knife. We know that Iron Man will never blow up a group of Iraqis who were threatening his corporate profits and then lie and say they were terrorists.
This worked during the Golden Age of Comics, but once the Silver Age started and Marvel started deconstructing the superhero (mainly with Spider-Man as an angst-ridden teen and the Fantastic Four as a dysfunctional family), it was no longer true.

Sure, some vigilantes are above reproach. Nobody is going to accuse Captain America of killing someone in cold blood. The readership knows that Spider-Man will never cross the line. But the Punisher, on the other hand, crosses the line every day. So, yes, while some heroes have unassailable morality, there are a lot of others that don't.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#51105: Feb 9th 2016 at 10:55:34 AM

The police are a great example because the principle of "they control each other" results in an awful lot of police officers receiving, at most, a slap on the wrist and a fantastic retirement packages for crimes up to and including racially-motivated premeditated murder.

Again, the only reason we can trust in "they control each other" is because it will never be relevant. There will never be a time where Captain America or Black Widow is legitimately guilty of a major felony and the only acceptable justice will be thirty years of jail time. Hawkeye's never going to put a guy in the back of a paddywagon unsecured and drive recklessly until constantly slamming around the vehicle bludgeons the man to death. Spider-Man's never going to sell state secrets to China.

In reality, the answer to that question would be that they would be a U.N. Task Force, because the U.N. is the only authority that even begins to approach a global reach. Or they wouldn't be a global peacekeeper force at all because, seriously, there are so many international problems with that concept. Like, for instance, what happens when Iron Man decides that global peacekeeping means they need to unseat Kim Jong-Un and convert North Korea into a democracy.

But because superheroes operate under certain Necessary Weasels to justify their basic conventions, that ship's already sailed. The U.N. authority that would have had oversight over them wanted to launch a nuclear bomb at NYC because all authority figures must be corrupt, incompetent, and/or evil - and in this case, some of them are even Super-Nazis because why not.

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51106: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:01:12 AM

The U.N. authority that would have had oversight over them wanted to launch a nuclear bomb at NYC because all authority figures must be corrupt, incompetent, and/or evil
I mean, come on, not all authority figures. Nick Fury was uncorrupt and generally competent. And while the Vice President was corrupt, the President himself seemed to be okay. I think you are taking a few examples and saying that they account for all authority figures, when it's clear that they don't.

edited 9th Feb '16 11:01:21 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#51107: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:08:14 AM

Fury's competency takes the one and only form allowed in superhero fiction: he's very good at getting superheroes to do his job. This is a necessary staple of superhero fiction because if authorities were actually capable of handling things, we wouldn't need Spider-Man. The "good" authority figures are the ones who support the superheroes 100% and are very talented at recruiting the right superheroes for every situation.

Point is (clarifying since we've moved to a different page than where this started), Pro-Registration functions on the principle that superheroes are, in every way, a step backwards for criminal justice. And in our world, that would be true, but superhero fiction bends over backwards to justify the concept at every turn because of course it does, it's the entire focus of the genre.

So Millar expecting everyone to immediately abandon all the beloved justifications for superheroes in favor of jumping onboard the Realpolitik train and compensating by having Iron Man kick a bunch of puppies was a terrible decision.

edited 9th Feb '16 11:09:32 AM by TobiasDrake

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#51108: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:09:18 AM

[up][up]Not all, but the fact that positions of power that were able to be reached by multiple megalomaniacs speaks a lot about the state of government in the MCU.

edited 9th Feb '16 11:09:45 AM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51109: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:10:57 AM

Fury's competency takes the one and only form allowed in superhero fiction: he's very good at getting superheroes to do his job.
Cough cough Coulson cough cough.

You have to admit that SHIELD does a lot of stuff that other superheroes do. They fight Hydra, they actually form their own teams of Avengers (generally the Secret Avengers), and so on. There are only a few times when SHIELD becomes corrupt or stupid, like Civil War.

edited 9th Feb '16 11:12:51 AM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51110: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:12:12 AM

The point is that humans are just as prone to corruptions as Superheroes are. So any registration act has to be designed in a way which takes the possibility of corruption into account. And acting on behalf of the citizens while hiding your face is not unheard of. For example the sniper unit in Germany always hide their face and nobody is supposed to know who exactly they are, to prevent revenge attacks in the case of them having to take someone out. Granted, this unit is part of a government system. But the principle is not that different, they exist to do the dirty work and safe life in the process.

My whole point is that the whole matter with the registration act is not as clear cut as some pretend it to be. And I guess it will be the same with the accords. We are talking about a very slippery slope here - just remember what happened in Winter Soldier. Depending on what is written in them, I might be for or against them. But since the situation basically boils down to "we shoot the Winter Soldier on sight" despite what happened to him being known by now, I will most likely fall on the "no" side.

Also, let's get real here: If a Superhero decides to act unlawful (which basically means: he decides to become a Villain), humans can't hope to take him out easily.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51111: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:15:01 AM

Actually, if you guys haven't read Warren Ellis's Black Summer, you really should. It's basically a version of Civil War that's a lot more realistic and a lot better written - it starts off with the question "What would happen if a superhero thought the government was corrupt, so he killed the President?"

edited 9th Feb '16 11:15:12 AM by alliterator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#51112: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:16:20 AM

In the comics, the Avengers functioned as a UN or US agency fairly regularly.

That is when they weren't losing their charter due to shenanigans and deciding that they were better off acting unilaterally. BENDIS.

In the MCU, Coulson's agents of SHIELD manage to get stuff done but their legal status is a bit intermittent.

[nja]

edited 9th Feb '16 11:16:47 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#51113: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:17:21 AM

I still hope to god that comic!Civil War 2 isn't actually about some heroes looking into the future to see people and heroes who'll commit crimes months from "now" and then taking them down without actual evidence while the other heroes try to stop them+fight Thanos.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#51114: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:19:02 AM

I finally read the Annihilation What If? and was tickled pink at Cap and Iron Man reluctantly agreeing to table the Civil War thing until this massive alien invasion thing is cleared up.

And then one of the last things Cap says before he presumably dies fist fighting Annihilus is 'I still think I was right'

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51115: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:20:03 AM

Hey, I'm still laughing about that one universe where the entire Civil War was averted because Iron Man was a woman and she and Steve fell in love and got married.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#51116: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:20:23 AM

This discussion's made me interested in seeing a police procedural about super-powered cops. Largely to see how a writer tackles the lack of normal comicbook conventions.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51117: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:22:02 AM

[up] That is sort of like Powers, except the cops are unpowered, even though they themselves investigate powered crimes. But there is a complete system in place for superheroes and they have technology to dampen powers, so they can be on even ground. Until a godlike superhero goes insane, that is.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#51119: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:26:37 AM

it starts off with the question "What would happen if a superhero thought the government was corrupt, so he killed the President?"

So just like the two parter in the Justice League cartoon where we find out in a parallel universe Supermam turned President Luthor into well done prime rib and the Justice Lords took over.

And was a shadow hanging over the head of Question and Amanda Waller in Justice League Unlimited.

I have nothing else to contribute besides the fact Toby D is right on a lot if fronts

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#51120: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:30:52 AM

My favorite CW What If? was the one where Tony was more emotionally honest with Cap in the pivotal scene midway through where his men had Cap's cornered (the one that results in the Thor clonebot killing Goliath in the main timeline), expressed his fears about his ability to do the job, and reached out to Cap for help making the Registration Act right. Cap was moved by his emotional sincerity and refrained from sucker-punching him, and instead the two were able to work with Congress to configure the Registration Act into something workable for both sides and led the world into a golden age of prosperity.

It's the kind of ending that's kind of anticlimactic and could never in a million years happen in the main comics, but it's nice to know that there's at least one alternate universe out there where the damn thing actually worked the way it was supposed to.

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#51121: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:31:42 AM

So just like the two parter in the Justice League cartoon where we find out in a parallel universe Supermam turned President Luthor into well done prime rib and the Justice Lords took over.
Not really. Black Summer is a lot darker and goes more towards the "government hunts down all superhumans" angle. Or, as Ellis put it:
...masked adventurers on the run are not going to be pursued, tricked and trapped by their estranged colleagues. Every last one of them is going to be hunted by the combined forces of the US military structure. It is, to my mind, what would always happen — the streets of America would be secured by soldiers and gun emplacements and helicopters against the threat of the flying superhuman. And for those who think I’m being anti-American, consider this: in Britain, we’d just have the SAS kill them in their beds. You people are young, and have not yet learned how to do business.

[up]Do you remember what issue that was? I might want to read it.

edited 9th Feb '16 11:32:54 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#51122: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:33:15 AM

...masked adventurers on the run are not going to be pursued, tricked and trapped by their estranged colleagues. Every last one of them is going to be hunted by the combined forces of the US military structure. It is, to my mind, what would always happen — the streets of America would be secured by soldiers and gun emplacements and helicopters against the threat of the flying superhuman. And for those who think I’m being anti-American, consider this: in Britain, we’d just have the SAS kill them in their beds. You people are young, and have not yet learned how to do business.

That's just as unconstitutional as superheroes! >.< The military is not allowed to enforce laws.

[up] It was from the Civil War What If? special where Uatu was showing Stark multiple ways the event could have ended as he mourns over Cap's grave.

edited 9th Feb '16 11:33:45 AM by TobiasDrake

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#51123: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:34:52 AM

Well, we might not have a police procedural (thank god, I am soooo tired of them), but we do have superpowered agents now.

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#51124: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:35:48 AM

You know, the President has died before, and the USA recovered fine. I'd say a superhero killing a small-medium sized country's worth of people would be worse than killing the President.

edited 9th Feb '16 11:38:41 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#51125: Feb 9th 2016 at 11:36:55 AM

I missed What Ifs like the ones Civil War had. Nowadays, Marvel uses them to shut down fan critiques of their recent events by making everything a Downer Ending and going "Hah!".


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