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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#50776: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:03:09 AM

I think I remarked on this at the time, but like three days before Coulson's love interest took a bullet and fueled Coulson's own women-in-refrigerators roaring-rampage-of-revenge moment, Doctor Who gave us Clara choosing circumstances in which her death is possible, accepting that death with grace, and basically bullying the Doctor into not going for all that stupid macho bullshit.

It was an incredible contrast.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#50777: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:13:43 AM

I'm just annoyed they did the same plot three times in a row and expected us not to notice.

"Hunter/May/Coulson's significant other is tortured/killed/whatever by Ward, causing them to become obsessed with vengeance and do reckless/unsanctioned/rogue actions to take him down while everyone else tries to convince them that they're letting their emotions control them."

Until he tortures/kills/whatevers someone else's significant other, causing them to abruptly drop it so the focus character can change.

At least given the circumstances we shouldn't see that a fourth time. Unless they want to dig up a significant other for Mack or something.

edited 2nd Feb '16 10:14:43 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#50778: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:14:18 AM

The main point is that Hunters search for revenge ends when Bobbi tells him that he should stop - not because of Andrew, not because she wants to hunt Ward herself, but because she is afraid of what they will become if they allow themselves to go to the dark side in their desire for revenge.

Ironically we see at the midseason final how dire the consequences are when you abandon your principles when another character is not as perspective as Bobbi is.

I really enjoy the relationship between Hunter and Bobbi. Especially the fact that she is so much bigger than him. True, the show runner usually try to hide the fact, but the combination of a bigger woman with a smaller man is so rare in TV that I enjoy it playing out between them. That Bobbi is the more competent one on nearly every level is just the icing of the cake.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50779: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:16:55 AM

'm just annoyed they did the same plot three times in a row and expected us not to notice.

"Hunter/May/Coulson's significant other is tortured/killed/whatever by Ward, causing them to become obsessed with vengeance and do reckless/unsanctioned/rogue actions to take him down while everyone else tries to convince them that they're letting their emotions control them."

Until he tortures/kills/whatevers someone else's significant other, causing them to abruptly drop it so the focus character can change.

A testament to how played out Ward was as an antagonist.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#50780: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:17:51 AM

The main point is that Hunters search for revenge ends when Bobbi tells him that he should stop - not because of Andrew, not because she wants to hunt Ward herself, but because she is afraid of what they will become if they allow themselves to go to the dark side in their desire for revenge.

Yes, because he intersected Bobbi's own stupid plotline. Coulson's hand gets cut off, permanently disabling him, and he's fine by next episode with his shnazzy robot hand. Bobbi blocks a bullet with her shoulder to protect Hunter and has to spend half a season overcoming her traumatized fear of violence and learning to be brave in the field again.

Ward damsel'd Bobbi and, as a result, Bobbi got reduced to a whimpering, traumatized mess at the same time Hunter turned into a man-raging psychopath. Because god knows an agent as prolific and long-standing as Bobbi has never been shot before.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#50781: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:22:54 AM

[up] Except Coulson didn't get over it - as he said in the first episode, he still misses his hand. And Bobbi does get back out into the field - she doesn't stay in the lab. So all your complaints are stuff that is addressed and then changed.

The only thing I would give you is that Rosalind Price is fridged and Coulson does go after Ward for payback, but it's shown that this spectacularly backfired. Every instance of that trope on the show, actually, seems to be subvert it in some way.

lackofsense Since: Jan, 2013
#50782: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:23:28 AM

I thought Bobbi spent most of her time rehabbing and begging to be put back on assignment after being shot.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#50783: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:25:52 AM

She spends her time rehabbing and working in the lab as an alternative to field work. Then she does go back into the field, screws up a diplomacy attempt, and gets chastised by May for newfound cowardice. It's only late in the season that she finds her nerve and gets to be awesome again, which is painfully demonstrated through the aforementioned Special Effects Failure.

Yes, it's an arc, but the fact that her arc is that being shot made her timid and cowardly is the problem in and of itself. It doesn't matter that it was resolved, it never should have existed in the first place. The same is true for Hunter's berserker man-rage arc. This was a poor directional choice for these two characters that catered heavily to harmful stereotypes and made them both weaker.

edited 2nd Feb '16 10:28:06 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#50784: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:28:05 AM

Then she does go back into the field, screws up a diplomacy attempt, and gets chastised by May for newfound cowardice.
And then, in the very same episode, she gets over her fear and fights Kebo and electrocutes him to death. I mean, you kind of left out that part.

In fact, you seem to be leaving out a lot of the parts where the trope is used, but then deliberately subverted.

edited 2nd Feb '16 10:29:26 AM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#50785: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:29:32 AM

Bobbi's problem is not that she got shot. Her problem is that she got tortured, her kneecap got smashed and she was used in a trap to kill Hunter. That is way more traumatic than loosing a hand and needs way more recovery time. She is still wearing a brace at the start of the season for a reason, even though it is half a year later. The whole point is that she does recover and comes out of the experience even stronger. They spend nearly a whole episode it, and pairing her with May for that was a stroke of genius.

Coulson "just" lost a hand - and no, he is not fine with it, he is still fumbling around with it.

Not to mention that last season was all about Fitz recovery. This whole show is about making characters suffer and them overcoming the trauma they received. The only one who usually bounces back pretty fast is Daisy because it is part of her established character to do so.

edited 2nd Feb '16 10:31:38 AM by Swanpride

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#50786: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:36:31 AM

I'll say this about Ward—the fact that the show's kind of looked at him and went "well, he's a main character, of course we're still gonna use him" is kind of hysterical to me. He continues to exist by sheer force of status quo, at this point.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#50788: Feb 2nd 2016 at 10:40:27 AM

[up][up] I think it's more like "We really like the actor, even though the character is finished. So let's give him a new character to be."

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#50789: Feb 2nd 2016 at 11:14:30 AM

[up] That's the impression I got as well.

Even if "It" adopted some of Ward's mannerisms and characterization, it still has motivations and goals that are completely different then anything Ward could ever have.

edited 2nd Feb '16 11:14:46 AM by Falrinn

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#50790: Feb 2nd 2016 at 11:19:43 AM

Not sure it's about liking the actor so much as contracting the actor.

Brett Dalton signed a contract like everyone else did when he came onboard for season one. That contract would have been for a certain number of seasons, which means they need to keep giving him things to do each season. Whether it's for the big screen or the small one, everyone signs a contract and that makes it difficult to just kill off or write out a character on a whim.

But, as noted, this was the best thing they could do with him: killing off Ward and giving Brett Dalton a compelling new character to play, allowing Dalton to remain even after Ward is gone.

edited 2nd Feb '16 11:20:32 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#50791: Feb 2nd 2016 at 12:19:39 PM

Wasn't Ward originally supposed to die at the end of season one?

Either way, I enjoy the hell of his character - especially the way the show subverts the redemption arc. It has always been a trope I hate with a passion.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50792: Feb 2nd 2016 at 12:20:08 PM

I think he was, but they liked him too much to kill him off.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#50793: Feb 2nd 2016 at 12:21:35 PM

To clarify, I'm not talking about the fact that the show can't seem to shake Dalton—that's not what I find amusing. It's the way the show, for a while, didn't really seem interested in pitting him against SHIELD as much, and so there's several episodes where it seems like we're just kinda checking in on Ward the way we would Skye, or Coulson, or Simmons, except he just happens to be doin' evil stuff. The show still treats him like a lead protagonist even though that hasn't been his role for well over a year. The way the show is assembled, on an aesthetic level, doesn't quite seem to get that this isn't season-one Ward anymore.

edited 2nd Feb '16 12:22:16 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#50794: Feb 2nd 2016 at 1:39:28 PM

More than anything, I'm not sure why there is a need for a Mockingbird spin-off. Are she and Hunter distinct enough from the rest of the team that they need their own show, or is it gonna just be more spy stuff?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#50795: Feb 2nd 2016 at 1:47:05 PM

We don't know yet. Personally, I would love it if they had an entire show to themselves, because it would greatly expand their characters and history.

Also, I want them to travel to Britain and interact with MI-13, but that's just me.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50797: Feb 2nd 2016 at 2:57:49 PM

So is it possible that Civil War and GOTG Vol. 2 might end up helping to buck the trend of Marvel's sequels usually being less than stellar?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#50798: Feb 2nd 2016 at 3:01:22 PM

Winter Soldier was great and AOU was OK.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50799: Feb 2nd 2016 at 3:02:30 PM

I know, but it's no secret that Marvel still has a problem with sequels.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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