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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#50402: Jan 27th 2016 at 5:37:50 PM

I like how so far this movie hasn't had much of the cookie cutter art you usually see. It's definitely got some of it, but most of the official art is very dynamic.

What the heck is going on above Iron Man's head?

edited 27th Jan '16 5:38:32 PM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#50403: Jan 27th 2016 at 5:53:35 PM

I think that's War Machine flying away from him while in the same *pumped* pose as Iron Man.

edited 27th Jan '16 5:53:45 PM by Tuckerscreator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#50404: Jan 27th 2016 at 5:56:00 PM

After looking closer....I have no idea. Mostly because I don't recognize what the long thing about Black Widows right hand is....

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#50405: Jan 27th 2016 at 6:02:51 PM

It's the Falcon, who's also flying away for some reason.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#50406: Jan 27th 2016 at 6:03:11 PM

The long thing above Widow is Falcon from below. No idea what the gun thing above Iron Man is but it's probably War Machine contorting himself with yoga.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#50408: Jan 27th 2016 at 9:01:56 PM

You know, I always did like that scene in Ultron where they're defending the core from the Ultron drones. The best slice of comic splash-page style cinematography in that film and something I'd like to see more of going forward.

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50409: Jan 27th 2016 at 9:11:31 PM

Oh yeah, that scene was awesome. It felt like the 360 shot of all the Avengers in the first film about to kick ass (you know the shot, it was in every trailer), but it played out better.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#50410: Jan 27th 2016 at 9:19:01 PM

That 360 shot from the first film was significant to me.

Because it was the first time in the film that we had all six Avengers on-screen and suited up at the same time.

THAT was the movie. THAT was the MCU proving that their crazy crossover idea could work. Everything up to then was just buildup.

It's a shame Hawkeye got kinda shafted on things to do, but AOU made up for it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50411: Jan 27th 2016 at 9:20:59 PM

[up]

All of this, yes. Every time I see that shot, I flip out in excitement. It never stops being awesome.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#50412: Jan 27th 2016 at 9:26:28 PM

I feel like the first Avengers did their Money Shot of the whole group a lot better than Age of Ultron. Even if the shot itself wasn't all that impressive in the first movie (strictly taken as a shot of its own, and even then you have to ignore what it meant for the MCU as a whole), it lead to the awesome moment of Cap directing the entire team, figuring out how they could best use their talents and them getting the hell to work on it.

Age of Ultron's was... significantly less impressive for me. Nine people fighting in such close proximity should have been a lot clumsier and less effective than it was, especially when people like Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, and Scarlet Witch are involved. Not to mention that at one point you can actually see an Ultron bot fly around the generator only to get destroyed rather than actually touch it.

edited 27th Jan '16 9:27:29 PM by Khfan429

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#50413: Jan 27th 2016 at 9:26:32 PM

The shared universe concept is a pretty significant achievement in and of itself. I'm wondering if I should rewatch Avengers and see if my opinion of it changes any, since I still tend to look at the film from the perspective of 18-year old me, who strongly disliked the movie.

edited 27th Jan '16 9:40:38 PM by wehrmacht

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#50414: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:06:24 PM

I rewatched Age of Ultron a few times over the last few days, and it's a lot better than I remembered it being. It's still got its serious issues, but things were better set up than I remember - especially Tony creating Ultron and Ultron's issues in the first place (especially his contrast with vision), and its definitely super entertaining.

It's more like Iron Man 3 to me now - a movie that had a strong and engaging beginning, but which starts to lose control of its plot threads and characters, and fails to follow up on its own development as the it goes on. Though it manages to be a lot more engaging than 3 even when that starts to happen.

Also like Iron Man 3, parts of the villain are misblamed as apposed to others - like Mandarin, while Ultron gets flack for being silly it's really the stuff between the silliness that hurts him. His character kind of meanders towards the end, and he feels like he's missing context, but by that point his mood swings and sardonic behavior are keeping him interesting. I think in the end he was a victim of the pacing - for every two scenes with Ultron, it feels like there should've been another in-between to space out his character.

And unlike Loki, beyond his very first scene there's no point in the movie where it feels like we're focusing on him. It's all how other people see him, which doesn't help.

edited 27th Jan '16 10:10:57 PM by KnownUnknown

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#50415: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:12:27 PM

[up]Like vision saying he is hurt? or Wanda about how weird he is? yeah there is a lot of talk,not show going around him.

In my case, what I dont like of him is the climax because his strategy is pretty much "throw mooks to the avenger until they stop" which got boring pretty damn fast.

But faster I see the movie again I would said tony stark is not that stupid at creating Vision....well, kind off.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#50416: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:22:02 PM

My favorite Ultron scene, maybe even my favorite scene in the whole movie, is the part where he first wakes up. He has no idea what's going on, his mind is all over the place, and the scene is driven by his confusion and anguish while JARVIS tries to talk him down.

After that, it's the Avengers reacting to Ultron being scary and getting mad about his existence. The twins meeting him, being impressed with him, and then finally reacting to him being scary. Klaue getting a payday out of him, after which the Avengers and the twins take over the scene. Captain America tracking him down while he's in the middle of a hissy fit. Widow being Ultron's prisoner and watching as he talks about being evil. Sokovia and the Avengers facing down an army of angry and unreasonable Ultron drones. And finally Vision countering his cynicism with idealism.

Compare the twins, who get a lot of moments to themselves and about themselves. Most scenes with Ultron in it are about other characters, and there's a lot of people talking about him as apposed to us seeing it, so we're always seeing him from their points of view. I think that's why in the end he seems more inconsistent then he was probably intended to be.

edited 27th Jan '16 10:24:40 PM by KnownUnknown

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#50417: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:23:54 PM

Y'know, I really wish they'd taken the time to establish that there was something about the scepter itself, or at least the blue casing for the Mind Stone, that caused people to go batcrap crazy. Preferably planted by Thanos as a failsafe.

In one fell swoop, you'd explain why Ultron went so nuts so fast, why Thanos only got off his ass after Ultron was destroyed and the Mind Stone was left with the Vision, why Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's characterization was so nonexistent (I don't think the prequel comics ever demonstrated their vendetta against Stark before being experimented on, if I'm right you could even dismiss it as a side effect) while also removing the issue of all the terrible stuff they did pursuing said vendetta, why Vision worked while Ultron didn't (aside from JARVIS apparently being just that awesome)... hell, it even provides a retroactive explanation for any discrepancies in Loki's behavior in the first Avengers film.

It wouldn't solve everything, but it'd make at least half of the problematic character arcs make a bit more sense.

edited 27th Jan '16 10:25:23 PM by Khfan429

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#50418: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:31:31 PM

I don't know about that. If it turns out that every vendetta and evil action characters are undertaking is just because of the Mind Stone, then they're not really making choices, and all the scenes where we see their personalities and perspectives lead them to decide to do bad things and make those choices are pointless.

With Stark we get a better showing of him being obsessed and making a titanic mistake (although, as Drake often points out, the way they handle the Vision's creation scene screws up that whole idea). But that's the reason I've never liked the idea that Ultron is only trying to destroy humanity because Thanos is secretly pushing him to, even if it's implicit within the film itself. It removes agency from his character, screws with his characterization and arguably absolves him of guilt and removes the tragedy of his character in favor of a different character who isn't even in the plot.

But yeah. It is implicit in the film. Not so much for the twins than for Ultron, though (though Thor gives a throwaway line about how Wanda's powers were caused by the stone).

edited 27th Jan '16 10:37:00 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#50419: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:35:49 PM

I think at least some of you know how I feel about Age Of Ultron...

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#50420: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:36:35 PM

[up][up]I don't think it absolves Tony at all.

Nothing changes about what a colossally bad idea it was to screw with the scepter if Thanos planted the program there. It doesn't invalidate how arrogant it was of Tony to go behind the team's back and try to create a world-saving AI in the span of just one weekend. All that's different is that the program was doomed to be actively malicious from the start rather than something that grew out of his control.

Either way, it's something that could have been avoided if he talked to the rest of the team/stopped and thought about it some more.

So really, the only ones who would have responsibility lifted from them are Ultron (who can only be considered so culpable anyway because he's an AI, it's not his fault if his programming sucks regardless of who made him), and the twins (and the movie decides to just gloss over their horrible actions anyways, so at least there'd be justification).

edited 27th Jan '16 10:38:39 PM by Khfan429

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#50421: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:45:05 PM

It definitely does, as the Vision scene proves that Tony was actually completely right.

In the beginning, Tony says he never actually built an AI for Ultron. The scene where Ultron comes online seems to throw this into question, since it appears to depict Tony and Bruce creating a program and only having a problem interfacing it with the Iron Legion. Even JARVIS claiming that there's no way Ultron should've activated on his own seems off, since Tony apparently kept a program running for exactly that reason. So at first, it's set up that Ultron is at least partially Tony's baby, the result of his obsessions.

And then the Vision scene comes along, and we find out that Tony was apparently not fudging the truth. He gets a second chance, he does exactly what he would've done if, it turns out that Ultron actually did activate without input from him, and now that he actually has the chance to do what he was trying to do it goes off perfectly. No hitches, no problems, and Cap has egg on his face for doubting him.

He even gets a literal pat on the back and a "good job" from Vision about it (I always thought that was an exaggeration), and for good reason. As it turns out, he really didn't create Ultron - the idea of using the mind stone to create a protector for humanity is just as genius as Tony thought it would be.

That's the big problem with it - if Ultron was always going to be evil, Tony had nothing to do with it. If he's the result of Tony making a mismatch of something he shouldn't have been meddling with in the first place, that's different, but then Tony proves that when given the chance he's actually perfectly capable of meddling with it and just ran into extenuating circumstances the first time. This gets even worse if it's Thanos that did it, because now it looks like Tony was set up by a hidden enemy to look like he did something wrong when he was actually on the ball.

It's a problem that happens sometimes in plots that want the heroes to be guilty about things that happen, but don't want them to come off looking too bad, so instead you get problems that aren't really their fault when you think about it.

edited 27th Jan '16 10:49:15 PM by KnownUnknown

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#50422: Jan 27th 2016 at 10:52:58 PM

That... doesn't change that Tony's directly responsible for Ultron, though.

I mean, I saw no indication that Tony and Bruce created Ultron at all, at least not in any sense more meaningful than assembling pre-existing code from the scepter (which is another big problem, because it doesn't explain why he's basically evil Tony with Hulk's anger issues). The initial conversation seemed to be implying the program was already pretty much done (or at least, complete enough to make JARVIS obsolete) and it was just a matter of making it interface with the Iron Legion.

But even if Tony didn't create the program, he's the one who poked it and woke it up. He put Ultron into his Iron Legion by circumventing the rest of the team and fucking around with something he didn't understand, and the world was almost destroyed.

Going off that, the reason Vision worked is that Tony used a program he knew he could trust as the baseline. When he realized that, even with a memory dump, JARVIS was not only still capable of defending the world, but willing to, it stopped being a stupid idea, because it was Tony using a tried and true program rather than some weird thing he found in a jewel.

edited 27th Jan '16 10:55:48 PM by Khfan429

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#50423: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:19:56 AM

The shot in The Avengers is better because it feels more earned. The whole movie was building up to this point so when it happens, it is incredible satisfying. That is the problem with Age of Ultron. There is so much going on that the built-up to the moment feels feeble, plus, it is in the end just a repeat of what we already had in the first movie. That's why the scene when Scarlet Witch storms out of the building and starts killing Robots left and right feels so much more satisfying than the group shot.

The Best scenes are by far the ones involving Vision, though. Especially his final talk with Ultron. That one is brilliant!

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#50424: Jan 28th 2016 at 4:58:47 AM

So the new LEGO game isn't subtle about reusing the same map from the last game with some specific changes...

Edit: Oh, someone wanted to know who voices Kamala in the game, right? It's apparently Ashly Burch of Life is Strange and Mortal Kombat X fame.

edited 28th Jan '16 5:48:03 AM by LordofLore

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#50425: Jan 28th 2016 at 7:20:04 AM

Oh, someone wanted to know who voices Kamala in the game, right? It's apparently Ashly Burch of Life is Strange and Mortal Kombat X fame.
Ooh, interesting.


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