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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50051: Jan 23rd 2016 at 9:41:57 AM

I don't know if it was him or Marvel who tried to cut it down, but I think they should have cut down on some of the story arcs if they weren't going to make it longer. On the other hand, The Vision is the best character in the movie.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#50052: Jan 23rd 2016 at 9:43:46 AM

My opinion is that Age of Ultron is a brilliant movie marred by a pacing which is too rapid.

Do we think it would have been improved if Ultron and the Maximoffs had been introduced in previous films?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50053: Jan 23rd 2016 at 9:47:20 AM

I concur with khfan. Age of Ultron is a lot of fun, but a few steps down from the first Avengers film.

edited 23rd Jan '16 9:50:05 AM by VeryMelon

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50054: Jan 23rd 2016 at 9:48:12 AM

I would have preferred Ultron were mentioned in Iron Man 3 at the end or something.

Of course, if the film were to flesh out its plotlines, it should have been around 3 hours or so long, maybe more.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#50055: Jan 23rd 2016 at 9:59:30 AM

Personally I like 3 hour long films. I like films to be long and winding. But I appreciate I'm a minority in this.

yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#50056: Jan 23rd 2016 at 10:09:51 AM

[up] Depends on what the three hours are filled with, and how well-written the story is.

edited 23rd Jan '16 10:10:01 AM by yellowturtle

Crow: There's a plot?
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#50057: Jan 23rd 2016 at 10:12:45 AM

True. It's very rare I find a film I can't watch to the end. Interacting with media is just inherently enjoyable for me. I enjoy watching films I hate.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50058: Jan 23rd 2016 at 10:13:53 AM

Yeah you know what, The biggest weakness I think Age is Ultron has is the cluttered character arcs.

The first film gave every hero that wasn't Hawkeye the same arc, get over your egos and issues with the rest of the team and fight as one. This allowed the first Avengers film to make a more cohesive narrative involving not just the heroes, but Loki's part in playing the heroes against each other.

But Age of Ultron made the mistake of giving every hero their own arc. Iron Man's arc takes center stage because it's directly the reason there is a film, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's arc is poorly explained and vanishes, Thor's arc is a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment Sequel Hook, Black Widow's arc is entirely about her romance, The Hulk is a Satellite Character to Iron Man and Black Widow's arcs, Hawkeye gets a storm of Red Herring death flags, Captain America gets a Sequel Hook instead of an arc, and The Vision is an 11th-Hour Ranger.

The results of this are pretty clear, not every character is treated as well by the plot at they should have been.

edited 23rd Jan '16 10:26:16 AM by VeryMelon

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#50059: Jan 23rd 2016 at 10:20:55 AM

[up] I can agree with that. A longer run time would probably help. I think the hope was that thematically the film would be very cohesive.

Like, all of the characters are struggling with the hetero-normative ideal. The Maximoffs have been robbed of their nuclear family, so they initially side with Ultron who's existence robbed him of any opportunity to have a nuclear family. Bruce and Natasha struggle with their infertility and unsuitability to the nuclear family. Clint HAS the nuclear family and everyone is jealous of him. Thor rejects the nuclear family, saying that it will give him no answers, and Steve overcomes the pressure for a nuclear family, moving on from Peggy, rejecting Wanda's vision, and instead finding his family in the Avengers.

Ultron explicitly contemplates the nature of human reproduction, his plot is out right designed to destroy reproductive life, Vision is the rebuttal to this; that you do not require blood relatives to have family.

I don't think this came across though, I probably wouldn't have even picked up on it if not for Joss' interviews regarding the topic.

edited 23rd Jan '16 10:23:31 AM by Whowho

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#50060: Jan 23rd 2016 at 10:28:01 AM

Something I would like to see in phase 3, is the fact that the series and the movies are in the same universe, no longer be an informed attribute.

Examples

  • One of the protagonists is in trouble with the law, and his/her two lawyer are Matt and Foggy.
  • Kingpin as villain of Spider-Man (Preferably as Big Bad)
  • Daredevil and/or Iron Fist as friend/s of Spider-Man.
  • Lorelei as The Dragon of Loki (or Co-dragons with her sister)
  • If The Enchantress appears in Thor Ragnarok, show her relationship with her sister.
  • Coulson still alive.

  • And most importantly, they must be played by the same actor / actress.

  • The funny thing is that unlike others, I wouldn't mind if the defenders don't appear in the Infinity War.
    • Basically because Thanos is a villain that is far more powerful than Loki and Ronan.
    • While that The Defenders are weaker than Captain America.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50061: Jan 23rd 2016 at 10:31:51 AM

I would love for The Kingpin to be the villain of the Spider-Man reboot. I would actually WATCH the reboot if that happened.

TenebrousGaze Dark Eye from A Shaded Face Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Dark Eye
#50062: Jan 23rd 2016 at 10:37:19 AM

More show/film cross would be nice, yeah. Agents of SHIELD has a reasonable amount of film reference and occasionally film characters (the other shows do reference the films, especially the battle of New York but to a lesser extent) but I don't know if there's anything that goes the other way.

The key is things that a non-show-viewer would still understand though. That seems to be their reasoning whenever they're questioned on that.

edited 23rd Jan '16 10:37:54 AM by TenebrousGaze

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#50063: Jan 23rd 2016 at 11:18:21 AM

I think people are gonna need to let the dream of the shows having any real impact on the movies go already. It's pretty clear the film division has little interest in that.

While that The Defenders are weaker than Captain America.

Daredevil maybe but not Luke or Jessica.

edited 23rd Jan '16 11:19:39 AM by comicwriter

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50065: Jan 23rd 2016 at 12:43:19 PM

I just had a thought (and a better one than my earlier thought):

With the Big Three of The Avengers (Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor), they each have a trilogy to them. Out of those trilogies (so far), the first Iron Man and the second Captain America are considered some of the best films in the MCU.

Maybe the third Thor film will get that kind of recognition as well? Kinda like a pattern or something, ya know?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50066: Jan 23rd 2016 at 12:49:47 PM

Only the first Iron Man is near universally considered good. Iron Man 2 is usually called a bad film and Iron Man 3 is divisive quality wise.

Cap 1 isn't really all that well liked either, it's the sequel that every calls great.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50067: Jan 23rd 2016 at 12:58:16 PM

That's what I'm saying.

Of the Big Three in the MCU, Iron Man's first film is considered great, but his next two are divisive.

In Captain America's films, the first one is considered average and the second one is considered awesome (the third one isn't out yet, but I'm doubtful it'll match up to Winter Soldier).

In Thor's films, the first one is considered average and the second one is seen as the worst MCU film (not terrible but it was kinda meh). The third one isn't out yet, of course.

Now, look at how it's been going: one franchise has its first film seen as the best and one has the second one seen as the best. It's just a weird pattern I ended up noticing, which makes me think Thor: Ragnarok will be the best.

I'm explaining this to where you can understand, right?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#50068: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:03:31 PM

Supposedly rumors are that Marvel is aware of the Thor films' mediocre critical reception and have been putting priority on trying to make it better than the previous two. Their choice of Taika Waititi is possibly in response to the second movie being committee directed and safe to a fault.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#50069: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:05:41 PM

When it was announced Feige said it was a "revival" of the franchise and then later he said it would be like the Winter Soldier was to the first Cap movie.

I think that was a very diplomatic way of saying The Dark World sucked and they're going to try harder to course correct this time.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#50070: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:08:02 PM

that's promising to hear.

I wanted to like Thor but I just could not.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#50071: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:08:40 PM

How much control did Feige even have before that Perlmutter guy stepped down?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#50072: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:12:52 PM

Thor is actually my favourite of Phase One. Possibly by a notable margin.

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#50073: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:19:31 PM

I love the first Thor movie quite a lot. The Dark World is utterly meh.

edited 23rd Jan '16 1:19:53 PM by higherbrainpattern

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#50074: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:21:37 PM

My main problem with the first Thor is that the only really interesting part of it is the stuff with Loki and Asgard. Loki is an unexpectedly complex villain whose actual motivations for his scheme came as a surprise relative to the villains in Marvel movies beforehand and arguably since then, and Asgard was visually interesting and was a new setting with potential.

Unfortunately, while both of these elements got to shine to a degree (especially Loki), they are undercut by the other elements of the movie.

As far as the main character goes, we are treated to a similar character arc as Iron Man 1, where an immature manchild learns the value of responsibility and personal sacrifice (not exactly the same obviously, but similar enough to be notable).

This isn't inherently bad, but the problem is that most of the stuff with Thor in the human world is bland "fish out of water" situations we've seen dozens of times over, and an equally bland love interest. In the end, even with Chris Hemsworth trying to be hammy and charismatic, he just isn't as entertaining as RDJ was in his respective movie, where he pretty much made the character and was a significant strength of that particular film.

The result is that there is a pretty decent movie fighting against a much more boring movie, with the latter significantly overpowering the former.

it wasn't an execrable movie, but is one of the weakest marvel films in my opinion, and this is coming from someone who actually likes Thor as a character.

i was disappointed enough by it that I didn't immediately go see dark world, and its lackluster critical reception has made me steer clear of it since.

edited 23rd Jan '16 1:24:21 PM by wehrmacht

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#50075: Jan 23rd 2016 at 1:24:36 PM

the problem of the first Thor movie is an excess of Midgard in the plot. Everything connected to Asgard (Thor, Loki, Odin, the works) is interesting, but the parts on Midgard drag the movie a whole lot.

The Dark World was again besieged by Midgard and, according to some (not to open this can of worms for the zenith time), a unwise Executive Meddling decision to chop up the movie in favor of some characters.

If Ragnarok cuts Midgard for the greater part, it'll already improve immensely.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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