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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#49976: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:49:16 AM

The argument is Jane is nowhere near as morally heroic as the Avengers, who couldn't pick it up, so she shouldn't be able to lift it unless some really drastic shit goes down.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49977: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:49:30 AM

Considering Thor: Ragnarok is going to be the final Thor movie, as well as most likely a stealth Planet Hulk movie on the side, I will be peeved if Beta Ray Bill doesn't happen at some point.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49978: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:51:12 AM

[up][up]So what's the problem with her picking it up when drastic shit is going down? That was the whole idea: Thor and Hulk captured, the worlds in danger, only one who can save them is Jane. Boom, suddenly she can pick up the hammer.

I mean, I would also add in the cancer plotline from the comics, because that would also be a neat parallel and add into the whole "self sacrifice" - i.e. she's fighting even though she's sick because that would give her much more to do, acting wise.

edited 22nd Jan '16 11:51:25 AM by alliterator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#49979: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:51:50 AM

Keep in mind that what constitutes worthiness according to Mjolnir is incredibly vague.

More so in the comics where it moved the goalposts to Odin's extreme frustration.

Hah.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#49980: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:53:35 AM

Worthiness of Mjolnir should be explicitly defined as "for plot reasons."

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49981: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:54:42 AM

I think the whole thing with Mjolnir in Ultron was kind of dumb, and suspect it was only there to justify bypassing the other characters being distrustful of Vision so they could get straight to the action.

The problem is that now it leads to problems just like this - anyone besides Thor who uses it now is explicitly worthier than Captain America and all the Avengers.

edited 22nd Jan '16 11:56:08 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#49982: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:55:58 AM

To be blunt, it's unclear what qualities Thor has that qualify him for Mjolnir that none of the other Avengers can match. Worthiness is not well-enough defined to make blanket statements as to who is and is not worthy.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#49983: Jan 22nd 2016 at 11:56:18 AM

[up][up] So?

edited 22nd Jan '16 11:56:30 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49984: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:08:28 PM

I think Jane-Thor would be better saved for Phase 4, after Thor dies in Ragnarok like he's supposed to.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49985: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:20:06 PM

Jane Thor is a meh idea to me. It would do anything to make me like Jane as a character, so I wouldn't care about her getting the title.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#49986: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:22:36 PM

Thor: "Jane, I'm dying. Take Mjolnir. You are the only one I can trust with it."
Sif: "This is why Volstagg is my new best friend."

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#49987: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:27:55 PM

Thing is, there isn't really anything to say that someone's worthiness is so fickle in the MCU. Neither of the people who can pick the hammer up (again, assuming Vision actually counts) are ever concretely shown to have any problems once they prove themselves worthy.

And if self-sacrifice is a key element (again, not demonstrated in the MCU because all we have is Thor and maybe Vision), Steve and Tony have already demonstrated that they're willing to put themselves on the line to save other people. That's not a trait that's gone away.

edited 22nd Jan '16 1:29:01 PM by Khfan429

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49988: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:29:50 PM

[up] Again, though, both Tony and Steve tried to lift the hammer during a party. Not an emergency, a party.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49989: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:29:54 PM

I will say this in Jane-Thor's favor, at least the reason Thor loses Mjolnir won't be as dumb as it was in Original Sin.

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#49990: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:31:23 PM

[up][up]And, again, there's no proof Mjolnir can only be lifted during an emergency, or that in the MCU an emergency has any real bearing on whether someone can lift it or not. To wit, Thor never has a problem.

edited 22nd Jan '16 1:33:07 PM by Khfan429

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49991: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:36:03 PM

To wit, Thor never has a problem.
Uh, yeah he did. In the very first Thor film.

And, again, there's no proof Mjolnir can only be lifted during an emergency
In the comics, yes. And considering how much they take things from the comics, I'm guessing that counts for the MCU, too.

edited 22nd Jan '16 1:37:04 PM by alliterator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#49992: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:37:55 PM

Have we learned yet what the Original Sin thing was about?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#49993: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:40:39 PM

Nope and we never will because Best Fury hasn't been seen since and there's another hammer floating around waiting for Thor to grab it when the movie comes out.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49994: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:43:29 PM

Actually, Jason Aaron tends to play the long game, so I think it's only a matter of time before the Odinson reveals what Fury told him (remember: he was about to tell Thor back when he thought she was someone else).

But Thor has already been shown as worthy, sort of. In Hickman's Avengers, he goes into the Multiverse to stop the Beyonders and wields the hammer of "Thorr," an alternate Thor whose hammer would only be held by the Unworthy. But at the end of that storyline, Odinson realized he could no longer pick up the hammer and laughed at the irony as the Beyonders were bearing down on him. And we haven't seen him since!

edited 22nd Jan '16 1:43:50 PM by alliterator

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#49995: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:44:43 PM

Thor never had a problem after he proved himself worthy. There's never a moment where we see him unable to pick up the hammer in the aftermath.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49996: Jan 22nd 2016 at 1:48:53 PM

Thor never had a problem after he proved himself worthy. There's never a moment where we see him unable to pick up the hammer in the aftermath.
I'm not saying there was. You seem to be inferring all these rules about Mjolnir without any proof. I'm saying "It would be cool if this happened" and you're saying "But that hasn't happened before!" And my response would be, well, yes, that's why it would be cool.

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean that it can't happen. There is no set of rules that Mjolnir carries around to determine exact worthiness. It's a magic hammer. It can do what it wants.

edited 22nd Jan '16 1:50:01 PM by alliterator

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#49997: Jan 22nd 2016 at 2:01:33 PM

I'm saying the rules aren't clear. And my main criticism against Jane-Thor remains: Jane isn't interesting enough for me to want her to be Thor. It's only the fifth movie with him in it, and his third solo movie, it's way too early to hand off his entire identity to his chemistry-lacking love interest.

You have to make her heroic (or at least, Thor-ish) enough to succeed where the entirety of the original Avengers team failed, because there aren't any rules to say it's easier to prove your worth in an emergency situation. And you have to make it convincing, which considering Jane's characterization track record in the last two Thor movies, is difficult. It has to be a situation where she would need to sacrifice herself (and aside from her satellite connection to Thor, she's not that important), and where she has enough agency for her choice to matter. And if it has anything to do with her sacrificing herself to save Thor specifically, that's lame for the same reason it was lame in Disney's Hercules.

edited 22nd Jan '16 2:02:07 PM by Khfan429

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49998: Jan 22nd 2016 at 2:08:03 PM

Except I can easily think of a way for all of that to be done in one movie.

And the fact that she hasn't had much to do in previous movies doesn't mean that she shouldn't do much in this movie. The last Thor movie also means it's the last Jane Foster movie, since she's pretty much been a main character along with Thor in them, so I'd say that she needs to do something big in Ragnarok. (Thor, meanwhile, will be appearing in the Infinity War movies, where I'm sure he'll get plenty of big moments.)

I'm saying the rules aren't clear.
That's kind of my point, too. You can't rule out Jane picking up Mjolnir just on the basis of the hammer alone.

edited 22nd Jan '16 2:09:54 PM by alliterator

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#49999: Jan 22nd 2016 at 2:28:25 PM

She really doesn't. It's a Thor movie, and since Thor in this universe is one single person, there's no reason Jane needs to continue being anything other than a supporting player. Considering how dull she is and how her relationship with Thor dragged down the last movie, they'd be better off setting it across the other realms and leaving Jane and company out of it entirely. Also, as far as I know, there's nothing saying this is the last Thor movie.

And you're right, I can't just rule it out based on the hammer. But there's also nothing saying she definitely could pick up the hammer, and it wouldn't change how unsatisfying from a narrative perspective Jane-Thor would be considering that it would be saying she's more worthy than most (if not all since, again, don't know about Vision) non-Thor superheroes, all the evidence of which would be coming from a single movie because the others have her as boring as dry white toast.

edited 22nd Jan '16 2:30:27 PM by Khfan429

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#50000: Jan 22nd 2016 at 2:32:06 PM

I'm still waiting on that answer for how Thor is more worthy than the rest of the Avengers.

Is he a mightier warrior than the Hulk? A more noble hero than Captain America? More cunning than Iron Man? What makes him special in a way that makes him objectively superior to every other member of the Avengers? Why is Thor, without question, the greatest superhero who has ever existed?

Because if picking up the hammer makes Jane objectively better than the Avengers, then that means Thor is already objectively better than them. The alternative, that Mjolnir's criteria is subject to the whims of the plot, would leave no reason why Jane shouldn't be able to pick up the hammer just because Cap couldn't.

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