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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#49826: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:24:14 PM

[up]Yeah, but immigrants would most likely not visit fancy clubs, would they? Unless it is a fancy club for "their kind".

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#49827: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:24:35 PM

I see your point, but then again, bad shit happens to almost every character. We see Coulson with his brain exposed, begging for death - that's as far away from "agency" as you can get - so I think having black characters in peril is pretty much par for the course of having, well, characters in peril.
From 49816: "while this stuff does happen to white folks, there's enough of them that there's also plenty who don't get used this way."

And in the case of Dr. Wilkes, this is actually the point. He was accepted by the company for one reason alone, because nobody would care if some black guy vanishes. Makes it easy to get rid of him down the line.
There's a difference between one character seeing another character that way, and the narrative using the character that way. I'd be fine with the company seeing Wilkes as expendable but I feel like the narrative actually appearing to kill him off is a different beast.

Yeah, but immigrants would most likely not visit fancy clubs, would they? Unless it is a fancy club for "their kind".
You mean the kind of club we saw last night and probably could've turned up in season one without much hassle?

edited 20th Jan '16 2:25:16 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#49828: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:25:47 PM

That is true but I doubt any of them would be living in Peggy's building or working for the SSR.

[up]I actually thought it was a bit unrealistic that people didn't react harsher to Peggy being on a date with a black man.

edited 20th Jan '16 2:26:40 PM by Kostya

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#49829: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:26:55 PM

[up][up][up] Immigrants? I'm talking about American citizens that were black.

Just because discrimination in the 1940s was more widespread doesn't mean that they weren't walking around the streets and avenues of cities like LA or New York, working, playing, raising families, etc.

edited 20th Jan '16 2:27:45 PM by higherbrainpattern

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#49830: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:27:02 PM

I mean, I don't wanna get into "did season one Carter have diversity issues", because I feel like the show has decided to answer with "yes, but season two won't as much" and that's as good a last word as any.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#49831: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:27:15 PM

Pat from the Best Friends Zaibatsu will not be happy to hear about that.

?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49832: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:27:58 PM

I think Mike's arc was one of the worst, because the theme of his introductory plot was basically, "lol, black people can't be superheroes".

I'm nervous but cautiously optimistic about Wilkes' plot going forward based on this comment from this interview:

"His fate is a large part of what drives Peggy in the second season, as she feels responsible for putting him in harm’s way. His knowledge as a scientist can help Peggy and the team as they try to find a way to counteract Zero Matter, but being exposed to this substance exacts a toll on him both physically and mentally. In a way, the battle between Whitney Frost and Peggy becomes a battle for Wilkes’ soul."

edited 20th Jan '16 2:29:26 PM by Hodor2

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#49833: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:28:59 PM

I actually thought it was a bit unrealistic that people didn't react harsher to Peggy being on a date with a black man.
Yeah, Sousa and the cop standing around being nonchalant while a black dude invites Peggy to call him at home was...odd.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49834: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:31:27 PM

That struck me too, but I think that even if Sousa would have a problem, he probably wouldn't want to get on Peggy's bad side by making a comment.

And while the cop more likely would have a problem (glad the show alluded to how awful the LAPD was at this point), Peggy and Sousa are basically his bosses at this point and he wants to be on their good sides- so if they aren't saying anything, he isn't either.

Edit- I think both seemed kind of uncomfortable though, but at least in Sousa's case, it seemed more due to someone making romantic overtures and Peggy being receptive to it than becuase of Wilkes' race.

edited 20th Jan '16 2:33:09 PM by Hodor2

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49835: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:44:01 PM

From 49816: "while this stuff does happen to white folks, there's enough of them that there's also plenty who don't get used this way."
I wouldn't say that for Agents of SHIELD though. I'm pretty sure that every single character has gone through some really bad shit on-screen.

There's a difference between one character seeing another character that way, and the narrative using the character that way. I'd be fine with the company seeing Wilkes as expendable but I feel like the narrative actually appearing to kill him off is a different beast.
But the narrative doesn't treat him like that, because Peggy is clearly distraught (and the character himself is obviously coming back).

I think Mike's arc was one of the worst, because the theme of his introductory plot was basically, "lol, black people can't be superheroes".
That...wasn't the theme of the arc at all. I'm not sure how you even got that.

edited 20th Jan '16 2:44:27 PM by alliterator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#49836: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:46:12 PM

Mike's initial arc was terrible. The first episode nearly turned me off the show.

edited 20th Jan '16 2:46:24 PM by comicwriter

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49837: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:46:35 PM

[up][up]Well he's introduced in the Pilot having what seems to be a superhero origin story, but then it's subverted and he starts having severe anger issues and has to be (metaphorically) put down.

It starts working better from the Bridge onwards, especially after he transitions into becoming Deathlok.

edited 20th Jan '16 2:48:22 PM by Hodor2

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49838: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:49:13 PM

Eh, I don't hold Mike's start against the pilot because it was originally written with a white guy in mind.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49839: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:49:21 PM

[up][up]All of which is caused by the Extremis serum, not from Mike himself. It's not "lol black people can't be superheroes," it's "black people are being used as lab rats."

edited 20th Jan '16 2:49:34 PM by alliterator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49840: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:52:57 PM

I was thinking of Mike recently because of the similar basis by totally different execution and outcome of the new Falcon in the comics.

You have a minority character subjected to experimentation by nefarious people... and he uses his powers as a superhero.

Or also consider Luke Cage (who people initially thought Mike would turn out to be). It initially feels like a subversion of Cage's storyline in having it so that instead of becoming a hero, he becomes an unstable Angry Black Man.

Edit- I know it wasn't the intent, but it's like because the pilot is a subverted super-hero origin story (with Raina pretending to be a damsel in distress), it essentially mocks the audience for expecting/wanting Mike to become a superhero.

edited 20th Jan '16 2:54:50 PM by Hodor2

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49841: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:55:15 PM

After the serum is stabilized, though, Mike does try to become a hero (and then is forced to be a villain and then becomes a hero again).

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49842: Jan 20th 2016 at 2:57:18 PM

Well yeah. That's why I'm saying his introduction is awful, not the entire trajectory of the character.

Feel like I should note again that the first episode also has the heroes fighting Occupy Wall Street.

Like seriously, was Joss Whedon possessed by Rush Limbaugh?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49843: Jan 20th 2016 at 3:03:39 PM

Feel like I should note again that the first episode also has the heroes fighting Occupy Wall Street.
Um, what? No, no, they don't. If you are talking about the Rising Tide, they don't even fight the Rising Tide, they just kidnap/recruit Skye. And the Rising Tide is clearly a hacker movement, not Occupy Wall Street.

Seriously, what?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#49844: Jan 20th 2016 at 3:08:58 PM

You guys do know that Wilkes appeared in the comics and turned invisible, right? Whether that's good or bad isn't for me to judge (though it's funny in a bad way that the one black guy would be turned invisible if it's true).

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#49845: Jan 20th 2016 at 3:10:37 PM

Maybe he's a fan of Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man.

edited 20th Jan '16 3:11:17 PM by Tuckerscreator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49846: Jan 20th 2016 at 3:12:08 PM

@Adric- Well, about that, maybe they will adapt the invisibility. My theory at the moment is that he will be the MCU version of Shroud.

@blackraptor- You know, it's been a while since I've heard anything of that movement- I was kind of using it as a catch all for "anti-capitalist activist types that include hackers/"hactivists", which I "think" was true of them. Maybe it's more accurate to compare them to Wikileaks- do the two overlap?

But in any case, it seemed like the show was taking (then) contemporary conversations about racial and economic inequality and doing a Reactionary Fantasy take on them.

edited 20th Jan '16 3:16:22 PM by Hodor2

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#49847: Jan 20th 2016 at 3:15:18 PM

[up]x5

Chances are it had more to do with Jed than Joss Whedon.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49848: Jan 20th 2016 at 3:41:22 PM

You know, it's been a while since I've heard anything of that movement- I was kind of using it as a catch all for "anti-capitalist activist types that include hackers/"hactivists", which I "think" was true of them.
Uh, nope, Occupy Wall Street were protesters. The most common "hacktivists" are Anonymous. Completely different.

[up] Why would you think that? By the way, both Joss and Jed's politics have always seemed pretty liberal - Joss even did an anti-Mitt Romney video back in 2008.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#49850: Jan 20th 2016 at 4:21:35 PM

But the narrative doesn't treat him like that, because Peggy is clearly distraught (and the character himself is obviously coming back).
That's not about Wilkes, though. Wilkes dying so Peggy can feel sad is not doing Wilkes any service.

And yeah, I am a bit worried about the fact that Wilkes is the third black guy to have superscience done on him against his will. And the fact that he might be invisible now.

edited 20th Jan '16 4:21:53 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

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