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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#49426: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:01:59 PM

Right, so, in the Force Awakens thread we were discussing Whedon's potential issues with writing women, and Avengers came up. It was suggested that the discussion be moved here.

Anyway, I know Black Widow's infertility was in the comics, but like I said in the FA thread, just because it's in the comics doesn't mean it's a good idea. Avengers # 200 exists, but nobody wants to see that.

I don't think Whedon intended for her to mean that she was a monster because of that, but it could have been phrased better, at the very least.

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#49427: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:02:51 PM

That's the consensus on the line, hun. It should have been written better, but I would have kept that she was sterile.

edited 16th Jan '16 6:03:19 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#49428: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:03:36 PM
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49429: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:04:18 PM

Yeah, somehow people connected "We're similar because neither of us can have kids" to "We're both monsters because you turn green and huge and I've killed TONS of people" when the two are unconnected.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#49430: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:04:20 PM

I don't have as much of an issue on these lines as others do.

There was probably more to the conversation that got cut in-between so it lead awkward phrasing. I blame awful editing here.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#49431: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:04:37 PM

Yep, it's very easy to take out of context if you didn't watch the entire scene without coming in with preconceptions beforehand. The writing for that scene was pretty clunky, as is all of their scenes together.

edited 16th Jan '16 6:06:33 PM by AlleyOop

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49432: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:04:59 PM

I thought the Natasha/Bruce romance was just weird in general. Like they just wanted an obligatory romance, and ended up with something that didn't really work well with either character.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49433: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:05:43 PM

I got the scene fine my first time watching it.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#49434: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:06:41 PM

I have more issues with Black Widow getting an love interest out of nowhere and the fact that she can calm him which also came out of nowhere.

Natasha and Bruce have no chemistry either.

edited 16th Jan '16 6:07:14 PM by MadSkillz

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#49435: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:06:53 PM

i honestly wonder if the reason i didn't care for the first Avengers film was because of Whedon, or because the film was reliant on investment in the characters from previous movies who didn't impress at the time (it was probably a mixture of both, i guess). This led to Eight Deadly Words and me being bored throughout the entirety of the film. the mixed reception to age of ultron has me tepid about watching it, but i'll probably do so eventually.

edited 16th Jan '16 6:08:10 PM by wehrmacht

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#49436: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:08:29 PM

I mean, she's supposed to be sterile. She's a damn killing machine molded by the KGB into a weapon. The sterilization isn't the issue, it's her being raised as a weapon, the sterilization is just the cherry on top of a hellish training.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#49437: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:08:29 PM

[up][up]I mean the best parts about Age of Ultron is Scarlet Witch and the Hulk and Iron Man duking it out as well as the last scene in the movie.

And I suppose the action is good and there's a good scene of them partying together.

edited 16th Jan '16 6:09:06 PM by MadSkillz

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#49438: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:09:20 PM

Of the five avengers I can see why Natasha would go for Bruce, and I think Whedon had a strong idea of it, but what ended up was clunky enough to loose all that.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#49439: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:14:50 PM

I've seen some people try to make a case for the two getting together on the basis of her appreciating him as a person first, and it being a relationship based on intellect rather than pure lust or sexuality like a lot of females get. Or that Natasha still retains agency since it's her choice and she has the right to seek a romantic relationship after a lifetime of being someone else's weapon, that the romance tends to treat Bruce as the more receptive partner, that he doesn't shut her down by using sexist stereotypes against her, and that it generally avoids objectifying Natasha.

But a lot of even the supportive fans still boil it down to "good in concept, poor in execution" criticism in the end.

edited 16th Jan '16 6:18:53 PM by AlleyOop

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49440: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:39:20 PM

I think what we got was about the best possible way to handle Brucex Natasha: pretty well. I liked the romance. Felt very comic-booky (random romance between two characters who barely interacted working better than expected).

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#49442: Jan 16th 2016 at 6:47:20 PM

I agree with Cinema Sins' take on the controversy. It was very obvious the "I'm a monster" line was referring to the fact that she was raised to be a violent killer, but the awkward placement of having her break down and cry about being a monster RIGHT AFTER revealing that she was sterile was a really bad narrative decision.

Like, even though that wasn't the intention and I do think some people were looking for something to be angry about, I can definitely see why it rubbed so many people the wrong way.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49443: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:04:26 PM

Didn't come across as that to me personally, so I don't hold it against the movie, but I do see how others could get the wrong impression.

edited 16th Jan '16 7:04:50 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#49444: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:22:29 PM

I thought the Natasha/Bruce romance was just weird in general. Like they just wanted an obligatory romance, and ended up with something that didn't really work well with either character.

It seems like Whedon really wanted to do a romance, but was hampered since he was limited to characters who don't have their own solo films.

Which is funny since the exact same thing happens in comics all the time.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49445: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:23:06 PM

I have more issues with Black Widow getting an love interest out of nowhere and the fact that she can calm him which also came out of nowhere.

This is one of my problems with it as well. Nat had more, and frankly better, interactions with Clint and Steve. Pairing her up with Bruce just comes out of nowhere. It's especially dubious because Whedon wanted to prove that men and women could get close without becoming lovers in Age of Ultron but did this at all.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#49446: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:29:14 PM

I think the actual reason for it was that he needed a reason to get rid of the Hulk in time for Civil War. But there were better ways than resorting to a Romantic Plot Tumor, like having him be missing after the destruction of Sokovia.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#49447: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:33:13 PM

Joss Whedon wanted to show that men and women could still be friends without it being romantic and accomplished this by giving Natasha almost no interactions with Clint or Steve.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#49448: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:40:33 PM

I honestly don't get how people confused it for a "sterile equals monster" point in the first place. The context seemed pretty clear to me even if it wasn't as smooth as it could have been.

Does anyone even espouse the whole "if a woman can't reproduce she's useless" rhetoric outside of, like, the "go forth and multiply" religious far right and I Want Grandkids people anymore?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49449: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:41:35 PM

[up][up][up] Or doing the exact same plot (that he is indirectly responsible for the destruction of a city, can't live with the danger he poses as a public figure any more and goes AWOL) without sticking a romance into it.

It just hit me that even though the romance is part of Banner's arc rather than the basis of it, Widow doesn't actually have an arc in that movie that doesn't rely on being a Love Interest.

edited 16th Jan '16 7:45:18 PM by KnownUnknown

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#49450: Jan 16th 2016 at 7:43:52 PM

So with the Hulk's horrifying draw length, if he had an appropriatly scaled bow and arrow he would be unstoppable.


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