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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#49251: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:08:15 AM

You could get good mileage if you wanted to do the comics thing and have a Red Guardian who was her former, presumed-dead husband.

"I've moved on. I've dated a Hulk."
"I have no response to that."

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#49252: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:10:11 AM

whether it would be a "superhero" movie or not is more or less completely irrelevant to me as far as the merits of making one goes.

if anything, films should be treated as films first, and any trappings of superhero films should be secondary considerations and free game to be subverted or tossed aside as the film-makers see fit provided it makes for a good story and characterization.

edited 13th Jan '16 10:11:25 AM by wehrmacht

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49253: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:12:28 AM

Yeah, I'm for a Black Widow movie; I just think that it might be a little too different, tonally, from the rest.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#49254: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:14:10 AM

So it's her being to real and grounded? I don't read comics but I'd assume that she manages it in the comics, so why couldn't she manage it in a film?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#49255: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:15:17 AM

It's a nonsensical thing to argue, frankly.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#49256: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:16:14 AM

Widow has other gadgets, the stun batons, those electric shock discs she used in Winter Soldier to save herself, the rope thing she used to choke a guy in Iron Man 2.

Those wrist things are supposed to hold a myriad of gadgets and weaponry. If there was a better chance to showcase ghost she's basically be kinda sorta Batman. Admittedly she doesn't have Bstman's flair but she's not supposed to be scary she's supposed to be... Well, sneakier.

The Blog The Art
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#49257: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:18:02 AM

Yeah, I'm for a Black Widow movie; I just think that it might be a little too different, tonally, from the rest.

I see this as a positive though, and a chance for Marvel to continue proving they can make all sorts of films besides the popular perception of what a "superhero" movie is.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#49258: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:20:13 AM

Marvel's already made a habit of adding Superhero to various genres. All their films are tonally different to some extent.

Iron Man is Superhero Sci-Fi, Captain America is Superhero War Drama, Thor is Superhero High Fantasy, Ant-Man is Superhero Heist, etc. Black Widow being a Superhero Spy movie would just be following suit.

Marvel Studios uses Superhero as a building block rather than a genre.

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higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#49259: Jan 13th 2016 at 10:27:01 AM

Yeah. The tone of the Captain America films is different from Guardians of the Galaxy and so forth.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#49260: Jan 13th 2016 at 11:06:43 AM

Yeah, Im with pushover, Natasha while great, fill more like a typical spy women protagonist who just happen to be in marvel world, Agent of Shield have the same issue until the end of season 1.

So I think she need to tackle a more "marvelish" foe, Hydra is already burned at this point(and being the focus of current season in Ao S) and just another spy would feel like just waching another movie that again, happen to be in the marvel universe.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#49261: Jan 13th 2016 at 11:15:54 AM

But a typical spy movie would be great! For one, the spy genre has been constantly popular, in fact, some of the most successful blockbusters or this year were spy movies. And with a spy movie, there are a lot of options to do a third act which has nothing to with the usual Marvel climax. One of the biggest danger in the MCU is that the movies might become too similar. But with Black Widow, they could give the audience something totally different which will still feel like it belongs in the MCU.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#49262: Jan 13th 2016 at 11:17:08 AM

Didn't Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation do, like, ridiculously well this year? And isn't that a spy movie?

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#49263: Jan 13th 2016 at 11:18:31 AM

Yeah, imagine a movie like Skyfall or Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, but starring Natasha instead.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49264: Jan 13th 2016 at 11:19:42 AM

A spy Black Widow movie could be amazing! I just think a lot of people going in expecting a Superhero movie in any way, shape, or form would be disappointed.

edited 13th Jan '16 11:20:05 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#49265: Jan 13th 2016 at 11:24:35 AM

Yeah, a Black Widow film would likely work best as a Superhero-Spy movie.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#49266: Jan 13th 2016 at 11:53:14 AM

"Who she would fight? Easy, a villain who fits her."

Thank you, Captain Obvious. And such a villain would be...? I am asking for a specific answer, thank you very much.

And what would be wrong with her fighting Hydra? Ao S does this all the time. That's the beauty of Hydra, it can turn up again and again in different forms.

Yeah except HYDRA has already been done to death, so that would be make her movie even more unremarkable as a result. It would basically just be a Captain America Winter Soldier without Cap or Bucky. As unknowing said so nicely, HYDRA is already burnt up at this point.

"Who would Black Widow fight? That's so easy. Other graduates of the Red Room, of course. Like Yelena Belova."

A bit better, but Agent Carter did that already.

"But a typical spy movie would be great! For one, the spy genre has been constantly popular, in fact, some of the most successful blockbusters or this year were spy movies. And with a spy movie, there are a lot of options to do a third act which has nothing to with the usual Marvel climax. One of the biggest danger in the MCU is that the movies might become too similar. But with Black Widow, they could give the audience something totally different which will still feel like it belongs in the MCU."

Except again, they already did the spy story thing with Agents of SHIELD, some parts of Captain America Winter Soldier, and Agent Carter. Also, one of the main criticism the MCU get is them being afraid to actually use comic book supervillain in half of their movies. I don't think making an even more grounded movie with more assholes in suits as villains will fix this.

edited 13th Jan '16 11:55:31 AM by Theokal3

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#49267: Jan 13th 2016 at 12:08:05 PM

Large portions of people don't watch Agents of SHIELD so Black Widow doing spy stuff isn't a big deal.

Also, one of the main criticism the MCU get is them being afraid to actually use comic book supervillain in half of their movies.

I've literally never heard this complaint until right this second. I've seen tons of criticism of the villains being bland, cartoonish, or unmemorable, but I've never seen anyone accuse them of being afraid to use actual comic book villains.

A bit better, but Agent Carter did that already.

See my other point about Agents of SHIELD.

edited 13th Jan '16 12:09:44 PM by comicwriter

yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#49268: Jan 13th 2016 at 12:10:21 PM

[up][up]Let's see here, they use an actual comic book villain in every single movie, right, no matter if they're disappointing and bland.

...Where does that come from then?

edited 13th Jan '16 12:19:06 PM by yellowturtle

Crow: There's a plot?
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#49269: Jan 13th 2016 at 12:14:29 PM

[up][up][up] I don't think Agent Carter using an antagonist from a very early version of the Red Room even counts as a point against a hypothetical Black Widow movie facing down an antagonist that comes out of the modern Red Room, which aside from the name and the fact it specializes in female assassins, could be the same organization in name only.

Actually come to think of it, since neither the term "Black Widow" or "Red Room" are actually used onscreen in Agent Carter, it might not even be the same organization in name. It could be that whoever founded the modern Red Room simply took a few notes from the Leviathan-backed organization Agent Carter is in opposition to.

To me, the only major issue that could be standing in the way of an Black Widow movie is Phase 4 being too packed with sequels and introductory films to set aside a slot for an existing character who doesn't have an established film franchise.

[up] Yeah, Agents of SHIELD had that complaint when it was still fairly early in it's first season. But so far every movie antagonist has been someone from the comics, at least in name.

edited 13th Jan '16 12:17:16 PM by Falrinn

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#49270: Jan 13th 2016 at 12:14:36 PM

I've only seen the criticism in relation to Agents of SHIELD.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with making a Black Widow spy movie. Just because Winter Soldier had some spy elements doesn't mean making a spy movie with Natasha is re-hashing stuff.

Theo, you seem to have this weird thing where you think the MCU is only allowed to do something or some genre once ever?

edited 13th Jan '16 12:15:09 PM by MousaThe14

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Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49271: Jan 13th 2016 at 12:29:14 PM

I'm not super hep on the Black Widow movie idea, but how about something like this:

Have Julie Delpy's character seen in flashbacks play the same kind of role to Natasha as Madame Hydra does to Jessica Drew (I'm getting this from that Agent of SWORD motion-comic)- a twisted mentor figure. That's already kind of set up from the AOU flashbacks.

Then you could have Yelena Belova as someone who went rogue, just like Natasha, but became a gun for hire/terrorist.

edited 13th Jan '16 12:30:18 PM by Hodor2

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#49273: Jan 13th 2016 at 1:04:56 PM

The thing is, that Marvel usually gives every hero a negative version of himself...a "what if this guy were not a hero". That would naturally be an option for Black Widow, but I would prefer her preventing an international crisis or something like this. We certainly don't need a "big name" for her to fight.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#49274: Jan 13th 2016 at 1:07:07 PM

You always need someone to start a crisis and someone working for a secret organization with connections to the hero's past always work well.

(BTW I'm surprised the LEGO game is going with Korvac as the non-movie Got G villain. I was expecting Magus)

edited 13th Jan '16 1:08:23 PM by LordofLore

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#49275: Jan 13th 2016 at 1:09:54 PM

How about bring in AIM?

Basically the pro-capitalist members of Leviathan and non-ideological members of Hydra decided to start their own evil organization.


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