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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48376: Dec 16th 2015 at 11:52:56 AM

In The Winter Soldier Zola talks about how Hydra took steps to remove people that they viewed as threats. While talking about this a newspaper advertising the death of Tony's parents is shown. Since Stane already admitted to killing them in Iron Man 1 I think it's pretty clear he was affiliated with Hydra. He just died before it became relevant.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#48377: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:00:49 PM

Makes sense.

And now it hits me, Stane seemed like he was just rampaging pointlessly in the end. After all, he had nowhere to go right?

Oh, he same somewhere to go, and someone to go to. He knew exactly what he was doing. Maybe he dicked around a bit too much and tried to kill Tony when he should have been running, but beyond that, he may not have been going as crazy as we thought he was.

Now, we know they had a plan when they started this, but you have to wonder how fully formed it was back then. Was Stane being revealed to be part of Hydra something they'd had in mind back then, or is it only something they realized was possible in hindsight? Was Hydra's influence in Shield always on the table, or did it only gain strength as the universe became more fully formed?

One Strip! One Strip!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48378: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:09:24 PM

It's tough to say. I have a feeling they had a vague idea of the plot by the time First Avenger was out. They might not have been thinking that far ahead for Iron Man. They didn't even know if the shared universe thing would work back then.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#48379: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:13:19 PM

Perhaps, though Joe Johnson was supposedly going to direct The Winter Soldier at first back when The First Avenger came out. And I forget whether the Russos or Feige came up with the SHIELD is HYDRA twist.

As for Stane I figured he was just teaming up with HYDRA out of convenience because he wanted control of Stark's company out of pure greed, they also wanted him dead, and they were willing to do the work for him. I don't know if I'm comfortable with HYDRA ultimately being responsible for everything, on the one hand it means Marvel Studios isn't Writing by the Seat of Your Pants and that a lot of Fridge Brilliance is intentional, but it would be a little too Metal Gear Solid 4 Patriots-esque of a retcon if that was the case.

edited 16th Dec '15 12:24:34 PM by AlleyOop

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48380: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:16:02 PM

I don't think he's actually a member of Hydra. I think he's just a corrupt businessman that was secretly working with them. He might not have even realized they were Hydra.

edited 16th Dec '15 12:16:29 PM by Kostya

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#48381: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:21:54 PM

That's some really cool fridge brilliance Re the earlier films.

With Stane, reminds me of this line from Ant-Man that I thought was great. Where Cross boasts about selling tech to Hydra and then in response to the looks of horror on the others' faces nonchalantly says this is a new/different version of Hydra in contrast to the old (Nazi) one.

It's funny because fans (myself included) have debated whether the New Hydra should be tarred with the brush of the old one. But also, I get a sense that like Stane, Cross was on board with what he understood to be hawkish plans to advance American interests- which would also make him really rich in the process.

Like I get the sense that both of them were sold a toned down version of Pierce's ideology/plans.

edited 16th Dec '15 12:22:48 PM by Hodor2

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#48382: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:23:11 PM

I don't think Stane was a member of HYDRA either. He's too much of an opportunist and businessman for that. He's out to make profit by selling to everyone who can bid high, and in that he's actually fairly transparent. That includes the good guys as well as the bad guys, and his only distinction is money - he expresses once or twice the idea that it doesn't matter where the conflict is coming from, as long as he controls the weapons used he's fine with it.

But for that same reason, I don't doubt that he worked with them, or that he wouldn't have had a problem with HYDRA's existence even if he did know.

Cross is a good parallel, given that he's essentially a poor man's Stane: he's willing to work with HYDRA, but he himself isn't part of their organization.

edited 16th Dec '15 12:26:38 PM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#48383: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:23:29 PM

And I forget whether the Russos or Feige came up with the SHIELD is HYDRA twist.

It was Feige. He said it was thought up around the time they wrapping up filming The Avengers.

edited 16th Dec '15 12:24:07 PM by Tuckerscreator

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#48384: Dec 16th 2015 at 12:33:41 PM

Ok. Fair enough.

So not part of Hydra, but still probably tied to them, and using them to get what he wants.

They of course, we using him to get what they wanted as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#48385: Dec 16th 2015 at 3:55:44 PM

This actually would be a pretty awesome plotline for Agent Carter later down the road. Seeing Howard Stark's eventual partnership with Obadiah Stane and Stane's subsequent dealings with HYDRA. We've already seen Anton Vanko, who we know will switch sides, now we need Obadiah.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#48386: Dec 16th 2015 at 4:14:40 PM

Did Stane ever admit killing Tony's parents? I don't think he did....

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#48387: Dec 16th 2015 at 4:19:40 PM

Seconded, although the showrunners have stated that they don't intend to take their show past the point at which SHIELD is founded, at least for now. Shame since I think the fifties would be a rich period in terms of storytelling potential and relevant comic storylines to adapt (William Burnside, I'm lookin' at you).

[up]Nope, plausible deniability all the way.

edited 16th Dec '15 4:20:53 PM by AlleyOop

yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#48388: Dec 16th 2015 at 4:55:07 PM

[up][up] I think at this point there's a pretty fine chance Bucky did while he was under Hydra brainwashing.

Crow: There's a plot?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#48389: Dec 16th 2015 at 5:50:38 PM

Stane never says he killed Howard, which does seem odd since he basically rants about everything else in his showdown against Stark, so this would indicate he either legitimately had nothing to do with it, was responsible for it very indirectly or he actually did it but regrets it.

And yeah, Zola made very clear during his speech the Winter Soldier was involved. He's talking about how the winter soldier killed anyone who stood in HYDRA's path, Romanoff talks about how someone would have stopped him, and Zola just wryly adds "Accidents...will happen."

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#48390: Dec 16th 2015 at 6:49:31 PM

Yeah, Stane probably had nothing to do with Howard's death.

You know, it's kinda funny that they went out of their way to engineer Howard's death via Winter Soldier assassination. Wasn't he in his 90's by then? Couldn't they just have Rumlow jump out from behind a mailbox and say "Boo!"?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#48391: Dec 16th 2015 at 6:56:32 PM

Well, Tony was like 18 when Howard died so I don't think he was in his 90's.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48392: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:00:34 PM

Assuming Howard is mid twenties in the First Avenger he would be in his eighties at the time of death. Part of me thinks they should have made him Tony's grandfather. The timeline just doesn't make sense.

Beaver Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48393: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:02:19 PM

Apparently he was born 1917, and died 1991, which would make him 74 at his age of death,

Is this a Jo Jo reference?
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#48394: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:03:11 PM

Howard probably got married when he was in his 50s, as weird as that sounds.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#48395: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:05:45 PM

That explains why Tony is an only child if his wife is 10-15 years younger than him.

edited 16th Dec '15 7:05:58 PM by MadSkillz

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#48396: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:13:17 PM

Given all that, I think if they wanted to, the MCU could say later down the line that Tony was actually adopted, like it was recently revealed in the comic.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48397: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:16:11 PM

Tony looks too much like Howard for that to be the case.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#48398: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:18:34 PM

He could have just adopted a baby and hoped really hard it'd grow up to have awesome facial hair.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#48399: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:20:31 PM

If Obidiah was involved with HYDRA's killing of Howard, he probably could've called on a better class of minion for getting rid of Tony - even if Tony was in no way a threat to HYDRA at that point.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#48400: Dec 16th 2015 at 7:27:14 PM

Awesome facial hair is not genetic. It is something you train.


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