TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#48151: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:19:27 AM

Being rich isn't one of the things that defines Danny Rand, not like it does Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark, probably because he simply grew up in a society where that didn't matter. A lot of writers simply ignore him being rich to tell different stories - the whole "Seven Capital Cities of Heaven" arc is actually set in K'un L'un and the only part where him being rich comes in is for the subplot where the head of Rand International turns out to be kind of corrupt and funding evil ninjas (just go with it).

But, on the other hand, him being rich does provide a sort of counterpoint to characters like Tony Stark. Where Stark flaunts his riches, Rand doesn't really care about money at all. Like I wrote before, after finding out the shady things his company was doing, he basically started dismantling it and donating all of his money to charity, which is how much he doesn't care about being rich.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48152: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:23:28 AM

Sure and that would probably be a great story in of itself, but it's no place in a greater narrative what very strongly carrying a message of working people who are being screwed over by an uncaring exploitative system that gives no shits about the little guy.

We don't need a token good rich guy to prove that rich people aren't all evil, the same way Jessica Jones didn't need a token good white guy to prove that white guys aren't all evil.

It's like having a story about minority characters overcoming minority problems and issues, then suddenly dropping a white guy into the group for some reason.

he simply grew up in a society where that didn't matter.

Being able to grow up in a society where being rich doesn't matter sure sounds like a massive rich people privilege.

edited 13th Dec '15 11:24:24 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#48153: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:30:04 AM

I really don't think there is an "overall narrative" to the Netflix shows. So far, we've had Daredevil (which looked at corruption, mainly, while also commenting on gentrification) and Jessica Jones (which looked at abuse, trauma, and PTSD). We don't know what Luke Cage will be about, nor do we know what Iron Fist will look like.

Heck, if you really think about, you can already see there is a "rich person" dropped in the middle of the story: Trish Walker.

Being able to grow up in a society where being rich doesn't matter sure sounds like a massive rich people privilege.
Except the society he grew up in was K'un L'un, which is a made up fictional society. You can't really say that "growing up in a made up fictional society" is part of "rich people privilege" because, uh, it's completely made up and fictional.

edited 13th Dec '15 11:33:23 AM by alliterator

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#48154: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:40:16 AM

[up] I think the concern is that Iron Fist is so rich that he could make many of the problems the other Defenders face go away by throwing money at it. Trish is certainly well off, but I don't get the sense she is anywhere close to being that wealthy.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48155: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:41:20 AM

How is corporate corruption/gentrification and abuse by the powerful/the unwillingness of the system to help the abused, not a theme of the little guy being hurt by an uncaring system? Now sure Luke Cage could look at something totally different, but I'd be very surprised if it doesn't include commentary of how the uncaring profit focused system runs roughsot over the little guy again and again.

Also for the society, is it somehow magically a society without class? If so then it sure sounds like a fictional utopia, possibly out of an Ayn Rand book. B Ut otherwise I'm having a hard time it actually was a society where being rich didn't matter, if he was a student then eh was still presumably one of the elite wealthy few who could afford the trip there and become a student, instead of say a servant who cleaned the place. Now I could be wrong, I don't know Iron Fist's backstory, but it's sounding a lot like Batman right now.

As for Trish, she's not a main character, she's a supporting character and she's still someone who's shown to work hard, plus she's a radio host, that's a high end job but it's a far cry for being someone who owns an entire cooperation.

[up] It's not just that, we've had two series about the little guy who gets ignored/discarded by society because he/she is in the way of big money/power or simply "not important", it's a big narrative leap to suddenly have a series about a rich guy who is very much an elite in society and would never be ignored or discarded by society.

edited 13th Dec '15 11:43:39 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#48156: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:42:55 AM

Just a shot in the dark, call me crazy

Luke Cage will probably be some sort of commentary on race.

My various fanfics.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48157: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:48:18 AM

I see the Netflix shows as "Marvel Cinematic Universe but Darker and Edgier". How that darkness is achieved is incidental, to me.

So saying that Iron Fist would break the themes of the other 2 shows is kinda opinion-base, not any type of fact, in my opinion.

edited 13th Dec '15 11:48:31 AM by VeryMelon

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#48159: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:11:23 PM

On Iron Fist, why does the group need a rich guy? I mean we've been talking about diversity but class diversity is a real thing

So you want greater class diversity . . . by having all the Defenders come from the same socio-economic class?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48160: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:20:25 PM

[up] Greater MCU class diversity, the same way that Jessica Jones having all the main good guys characters be non-white non-men was good for diversity. The MCU already has plenty of heros that are"big people" who are hugely important to the world, own companies or are brilliant scientists, people who don't face the day to day challenges of real people, we need greater representation for the people who face the challenges of real people.

[up]X3 See I'd say it's more then just dark, it's a specific kind of dark, the darkness faced by the ignored and oppressed, the darkness faced by the little people that society deems not worthy of its attention.

It's going to be hard to achieve that if they're using a character who is not ignored or oppressed, not a little person and as the owner of a large company certainly not someone that society deems not worthy of its attention.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:24:32 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#48161: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:25:25 PM

[up]On the contrary, that can be used two ways:

1) Show there are rich people who genuinely care about this kind of people. 2) Have Iron Fist finding it hard to fit among them because of this.

There is potential either way.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48162: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:28:18 PM

See I'd say it's more then just dark, it's a specific kind of dark, the darkness faced by the ignored and oppressed, the darkness faced by the little people that society deems not worthy of its attention.

This doesn't contradict what I said.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48163: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:38:12 PM

[up][up] Do we need reminding that there are rich people who care about the little guy? Again, we didn't need reminding that there are good white men out there in Jessica Jones, why do we need reminding that there are good rich people out there? Yeah I guess showing him as an outsider to the group could work, it's just that we have so many stories about rich/well off heroes, can't we have something different? Can't we please have this one group to represent a massive segment of society that's ignored? Without having to have a token good rich guy?

[up] It wasn't meant to, it was meant to show my specific opinion which is slightly more narrow in definition then yours.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:38:35 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#48164: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:51:02 PM

I think the snobbism of the little man is just as bad if not worse as the snobbism of the rich.

You know what is really underrepresented? The upper middle class! Somehow superheroes are usually crazy rich, struggling with their finances or they are some kind of soldier or spy. We need more "well off but not crazy rich people who are able to make a decent living beside being superheroes".

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#48166: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:52:35 PM

Also for the society, is it somehow magically a society without class? If so then it sure sounds like a fictional utopia, possibly out of an Ayn Rand book. But otherwise I'm having a hard time it actually was a society where being rich didn't matter, if he was a student then eh was still presumably one of the elite wealthy few who could afford the trip there and become a student, instead of say a servant who cleaned the place. Now I could be wrong, I don't know Iron Fist's backstory, but it's sounding a lot like Batman right now.
Okay, since you don't know his backstory, let me explain it:

Daniel Rand was the son of Wendell and Heather Rand. He was just a baby when Wendell decided to go on a trip to find the hidden city of K'un L'un and Heather and his business partner went him. Business partner kills Wendell and Heather and her baby are left to fend for themselves. She gets killed by wolves just as she makes it to the gates of K'un L'un, where baby Danny is taken in by Lei Kung the Thunderer and placed with all the other students who lived and trained in K'un L'un.

As you can see: 1) Danny was a baby when his parents died, so he had no idea he was rich at all until he came back to New York. 2) Even if he did know, the people in K'un L'un wouldn't have cared, they treated him just like every other student who was there to train. (And no, it's never said that the students are all "elite" and that's why they're there - most of them simply came from K'un L'un itself.) 3) And yes, it is quite a fictional utopia, although based on Asian mythology more than the European utopias or the Randian rich-people utopia. In fact, it's one of the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven.

How is corporate corruption/gentrification and abuse by the powerful/the unwillingness of the system to help the abused, not a theme of the little guy being hurt by an uncaring system?
A theme doesn't equal "overall narrative." And, in this case, Iron Fist can completely continue the themes of the previous Netflix shows. The main character's economic class doesn't dictate what the themes of the show will be.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:55:30 PM by alliterator

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#48167: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:19:34 PM

See I'd say it's more then just dark, it's a specific kind of dark, the darkness faced by the ignored and oppressed, the darkness faced by the little people that society deems not worthy of its attention.

It's going to be hard to achieve that if they're using a character who is not ignored or oppressed, not a little person and as the owner of a large company certainly not someone that society deems not worthy of its attention.

You are aware that Daredevil stars a guy who could afford to go to law school, would be a rising star at a large corporate law firm if he hadn't resigned on moral grounds, and lets people think he needs the help an ordinary blind person would, when really he can "see" better than anyone, right?

I'm not getting ignored and oppressed coming off him.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#48168: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:47:48 PM

I mean, "can afford to go to law school" isn't necessarily a marker of wealth. Murdock grew up basically impoverished. I actually don't remember if the show ever said where that money came from, but it could've been a scholarship or something. Either way, he's impoverished now. "He could've been rich if he'd chosen to fuck over the little people" doesn't mean "he's actually rich."

Also, he does need the help other blind people do. He can't read except for braille, for one thing. Anything involving colors or details that don't leave a texture are out of his range. These aren't handicaps in combat, and he does indeed have it a lot better than most blind people, but that doesn't mean he's got no problems at all.

edited 13th Dec '15 1:50:15 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Cross (Don’t ask)
#48169: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:51:00 PM

The money came from a bet his dad placed on himself.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48170: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:52:09 PM

He still isn't living in the slums. His apartment is enormous.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#48171: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:53:19 PM

[up][up][up] Matt's dad bet on himself winning his last match before he kicked the bucket. That money was used to afford Matt's law school.

[up] In one of the worst neighborhoods in New York. Also wasn't there a special reason why his apartment was so cheap?

edited 13th Dec '15 1:57:17 PM by MadSkillz

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#48172: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:56:50 PM

No one wants to live with massive windows next to massive glowing eyesore billboards but him, for obvious reasons.

edited 13th Dec '15 1:57:07 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#48173: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:18:12 PM

He can't read except for braille, for one thing. Anything involving colors or details that don't leave a texture are out of his range.

It's never stated outright, but several times we see him take off his gloves and run his fingers over paper, implying he's reading the ink by texture.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48174: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:18:38 PM

It's still a fairly nice apartment. The other characters don't seem to be struggling too much either. They're not living the high life but they have relatively nice apartments and don't seem to struggle with paying rent or utilities.

edited 13th Dec '15 2:19:21 PM by Kostya

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#48175: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:21:33 PM

[up][up]I don't think he can read the ink, but the impression on the paper. He should still be limited in some regards...I doubt that he can read from a computer screen, or street signs.

[up]I always wondered how much back pay steve got....

edited 13th Dec '15 2:22:08 PM by Swanpride


Total posts: 186,763
Top