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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47801: Dec 7th 2015 at 9:57:14 AM

Yeah Wack'd I respect you and don't have a problem with you talking about social justice. I also love this user script you made to give Tvropes all the quote and mark-up buttons.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47802: Dec 7th 2015 at 9:57:57 AM

I admit, what angers me the most about Selvig is that Jane apparently needs someone to holds her hand while she does science. None of the male characters need that. They are simply one of the best in their respective fields.

Same with Betty, btw. She is supposed to be an expert on Gamma radiation, but does she look through the data in order to find a cure for Bruce? Nope, she just keeps the stick until he needs it.

Honestly, Dr. Cho, as brief as her appearance was, was a bit of a fresh breath, because she was actually allowed to be an expert in her field without supervision.

And my concerns aren't even about social justice alone...they are also an example of bad writing. It is as if the writers put in two persons in order to hammer in one nail.

edited 7th Dec '15 10:00:21 AM by Swanpride

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47803: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:05:47 AM

I don't really get the hostility toward Loki (and incidentally I know I shouldn't but whenever people are really hostile to something I like because it feels like I'm a bad person for my opinion).

I can kind of agree that Malekith doesn't get enough depth in Dark World but I think that's more of a story/writing problem. As I understand it, the comics Malekith is basically a two dimensional monster along the lines of MCU!Ronan. I think part of the problem is that as far as I can tell from the film, there's no way for the Dark Elves to live without teraforming things to wipe out everyone else. And it's like the movie sort of wants to present Odin as malevolent in his attitude toward them but I don't think wanted to commit to him being too evil.

As for Loki, he's always been a major character (whether you are talking about the comics or mythology/retellings thereof) in connection with Thor. Like I can't really see how the movies would work without him having an important presence. Like Loki is to Thor the way Magneto is to the X Men (and same deal of being a sort of Anti-Villain who flirts with "turning good" but usually kicks the dog after petting it).

[up][tup] That's a good point. Because while I think the movies do a pretty good job of selling Jane as a competent scientist (with some quirky traits), it would be an easier sell if Selvig wasn't there to be the greater authority.

edited 7th Dec '15 10:07:55 AM by Hodor2

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#47804: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:05:54 AM

Wack'd I apologize to you if I came off as unnecessarily meanspirited. I don't have a problem with you being pro-social justice, that's probably one of the last things to bother me when it comes to online discussion.

Also nth-ing for Selvig's character being incorporated into Jane to make her a much stronger character. I agree with [up][up], it's rare that we have a female lead who's an outright genius in her field rather than someone more bland for the audience to self-insert into. It would've given her a nice contrast with Thor and provided a better spark for their romantic chemistry as well.

edited 7th Dec '15 10:20:08 AM by AlleyOop

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47805: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:12:53 AM

And I think I'd presume if that happened Selvig!Jane wouldn't be running around naked as a side effect of being mind controlled (or if she did, her PTSD wouldn't be played for laughs)- as much as I like/defend Loki, that was definitely in very poor taste.

Also, thinking about it, it's kind of funny in the first Thor movie that part of Selvig's credentials is being a sort of expert on Asgard due to being Scandinavian. And like not only are the Asgardians not all that much like the Norse gods but there's no reason why Jane wouldn't have the exact same knowledge from I don't know reading a book on Norse Mythology.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47806: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:14:32 AM

Hodor I disagree with your comparison because you can totally have plenty of X-Men stories without Magneto.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#47807: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:14:41 AM

[up][up][up]See, I feel kinda bad because you also pointed out that I can also be aggressively mean-spirited, and, well, I did kinda gloss over the fact that, as you point out, sometimes I aim at folks who agree with me. I mean, I don't recall doing so, but I don't deny that it happens and I just need to be better at keeping tabs on it. So I, too, apologize for sometimes being meaner than is warranted.

edited 7th Dec '15 10:15:07 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#47808: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:15:34 AM

On the Wack'd hugfest, I just want to throw in that even though I know I can be a bit transphobic at times and that rubs you the wrong way, outside of that issue I like to think we tend to have each other's back more often than not. smile

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#47809: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:16:34 AM

Wait, what the fuck just happened?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#47810: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:17:43 AM

I'm actually fine with Loki. As it is they managed to not have him hijack the villain plot in everything he's in, unlike Magneto in the X-men films. Dark World Maleketh remains the actual big bad of the film where as Loki is basically removed from the climax entirely except at the very end. In Ao U he wasn't in at all, and his cameo was cut so they wouldn't start thinking he was controlling Ultron.

He took alot of potential screentime from Maleketh yes, but honestly I'm just grateful he didn't kill him and become the big bad again.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#47811: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:18:00 AM

[up][up] A combination of debating whether Selvig should exist as a separate character or if the films would have been improved by folding him into Jane's character, and also the giving of hugs to a member of our community who feels dejected because we are a community that values our members.

edited 7th Dec '15 10:18:15 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47812: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:18:41 AM

[up][up][up]I started talking about how Jane would be a better character if she had all of Selvig's character traits and sideplots, we got to talking about Loki's spotlight issues, Wack'd made a strawman argument against anyone that had an issue with Loki, more people agreed with me about merging Jane and Selvig's characters, then Wack'd apologized and now we're hugging it out.

edited 7th Dec '15 10:23:38 AM by VeryMelon

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#47814: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:21:22 AM

Well I guess mixing the two WOULD be pretty good, but that would make Selvig's PTSD scenes in Thor: The Dark World much more questionable than they already are.

As long as they removed Darcy, I'm game (I can't stand Katt Dennings or that racist as fuck show she's on).

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47815: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:23:04 AM

I don't really think the PTSD scenes were needed given that they seemed to be there solely as comic relief. Basically imagine the movie with no Selvig and Jane just going to Asgard and then punching Loki in the face the instant she saw him (which is what happened in the actual film).

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47816: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:23:12 AM

Well the "running around naked" stuff could also be taken out without issue.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#47817: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:25:22 AM

If I were to rewrite some of this, I'd take the time to also change their relationship to be less strangled by the red string. Give it more buildup or (and this is what I'd prefer) don't make it romantic at all. I think Kenneth Branagh was trying to go for a relationship based off of mutual respect according to his commentary, right?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#47819: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:27:15 AM

[up]

Your welcome.tongue

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#47820: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:27:48 AM

I like Selvig but like was said, you don't need two characters to hammer in one nail.

Sans Selvig and without being able to guarantee Natalie Portman for Avengers, would they just use a random SHIELD scientist? Or try really hard to get Natalie Portman for Avengers?

Because it added a bit of nuance that Loki was using one of Thor's friends but nothing that would really be missed from the movie.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47821: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:28:24 AM

Whenever people talk about disliking Darcy off this site, they find a way to Badmouth Two Broke Girls. Is it really that bad?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#47822: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:29:08 AM

I also heard somewhere that it was more like a sort of summer fling not meant to last, before later films started treating it like something more dramatic. Another confounding factor to Jane from a Doylist perspective is that Natalie Portman was slated to appear in Avengers but didn't because of her pregnancy, and apparently fell out of interest with the character after the whole Patty Jenkins director kerfluffle for The Dark World.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47823: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:30:44 AM

I forgot Portman was pregnant. Why do I keep forgetting that?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#47824: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:32:37 AM

[up][up][up]

It is racist as hell, for one. There's an Asian character who talks in a "Asian speakee Engrish" accent (and he's played by Lars from Steven Universe) and is constantly mocked for having a tiny penis and for being short, a black guy played by Garrett Morris from SNL whose entire dialogue is about people he's fucked or drugs he's taken, a Russian guy who sexually harasses everyone and is more of a man whore than Howard friggin' Wolowitz, a Polish woman played by Jennifer Coolidge (yes, Stifler's mom) who speaks in the worst excuse of a Polish accent I've ever heard, and is also a complete whore who, in EVERY GODDAMN EPISODE, even though she's a main cast member, the laugh track screams with WOOOOOOS like it's supposed to be a guest star, and to top it all off the main characters are complete assholes (especially Kat Dennings character), and we're SOMEHOW supposed to root for them.

FUCK THAT SHOW.

edited 7th Dec '15 10:32:53 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#47825: Dec 7th 2015 at 10:34:00 AM

Sans Selvig and without being able to guarantee Natalie Portman for Avengers, would they just use a random SHIELD scientist? Or try really hard to get Natalie Portman for Avengers?

I recall the "merge Selvig with Jane" idea came up once before, and while I think it sounds kinda cool, the plot of The Avengers regarding Thor's relationship with Loki would be very different. In the current film Thor is like: "Loki is misguided, apparently he's got Selvig prisoner or something too, I'll save him but I gotta smash aliens first". Had Selvig been Jane, I don't think Thor would've done anything in the climax but keep whaling on the portal device and Loki trying to get her free.


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