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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#47726: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:09:51 AM

But Thor isn't a unisex name. And even if this caused people to start using it as one, the weirdness isn't that Jane is a woman going by the name Thor anyway. It's that Thor is suddenly a title rather than just the name of one of the people to wield Mjolnir.

This is more like if Bob got fired from a job, and the company then hired Alice - who by having that job abruptly became Bob in everyone's mind, as being Bob and having his job are now synonymous.

I think they just painted by numbers a bit too much on the whole "look at the new version of X classic hero" bit. "Sam Wilson is the new Captain America" makes a good headline, and works because Captain America is a moniker. "Jane Foster is the new Thor" also makes a good headline, but feels weird because Thor isn't.

edited 7th Dec '15 1:23:41 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47727: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:10:05 AM

Just because English is a language in which female and male names are sometimes interchangeable, it doesn't mean that it is common in other languages. (In Germany there is even a law that you have to name your child gender-specific).

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#47728: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:33:22 AM

It's more like some random mortal girl's name turning to Jesus, Mohammed, Zeus, or Vishnu because she did something only they could without actually becoming them or a reincarnation of them.

It's not the same situation as Linkle, where theoretically girls have as much right to the name as boys and they're technically unrelated people who turn out to be connected through the power of reincarnation.

edited 7th Dec '15 1:39:29 AM by AlleyOop

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#47729: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:37:11 AM

That's an odd law.

Anyway, its not that difficult to understand. Marvel wanted to give someone else a spin with the hammer. The book has to be called Thor to capitalize on name recognition. To reduce confusion, the wielder of Mjolnir (which grants the power of Thor) has to be called Thor.

Hence, we have a woman going by the name Thor when she's wielding the hammer.

In-universe, Odinson gave her his blessing because he was in the grumps and at least the hammer was talking to someone.

Calling her Lady Thor or Thora or Thordis or Ms Thorvel or Thorette or Thorita or anything like that completely misses the point.

Its a business decision as much as its a creative decision. Because Marvel is a big entertainment company and likes money.

They like money a lot.

edited 7th Dec '15 1:38:03 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#47731: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:47:17 AM

Given that she was going to end up called Thor no matter what, because money, the way it was handled in book was decent.

People started calling her Thor because she had Mjolnir which her position was none of your business who I am, that's why I'm wearing a mask.

But Thor ends up salty about her using the hammer and possibly the name and they get into a fight because superheroes but in the end he tells her to just go ahead and use the name, he has some beer to cry into.

And later after he has cried into some beer and eaten some waffles, they're best friends and are teaming up to fight things.

So basically, lending someone your first name can help you cope with your hammer no longer functioning.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#47732: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:52:44 AM

[up][up]Then what there is to not understand, from Watsonian point of view?

Thor being a title is how things have always been in the comics. You have the hammer, you get to be Thor. It have always been like that ever since the first appearance (when Donald Blake wasn't actually Thor) but it was confirmed by Eric Maestrom who got to be called Thor(his helmet back then is even similar to Jane's). Jane being called Thor is just keeping up with the tradition. And they even got Odinson to give his blessing to the idea.

People get too hang up with the "personal name thing". True, that is the case, Odinson name is Thor. His name is still Thor Odinson even after Jane took over. But his name is also a title for the wielder of Mjonir.

edited 7th Dec '15 1:55:18 AM by Heatth

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#47733: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:53:40 AM

There's nothing to not understand. That was never an issue.

edited 7th Dec '15 1:56:41 AM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#47735: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:56:17 AM

So it is just and arbitrary personal opinion then? Good to know.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#47736: Dec 7th 2015 at 1:58:05 AM

Well, I mean, a person can fully understand the reason why a decision was made and still have issue with that decision. That doesn't necessarily mean their conclusion is arbitrary or without reason, even if it personal.

edited 7th Dec '15 2:02:32 AM by KnownUnknown

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#47737: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:26:45 AM

The idea that Thor's name is somehow dependant on having the hammer strikes me as a pretty dumb concept in and of itself. How can they reconcile the idea of it as a transferrable title with the notion that it's also Thor's personal name? I know that was the initial concept behind the character, but wasn't the notion of him as simply a mortal wielding Thor's power discarded ages ago?

Regarding unisex names, I think they generally sound less weird in English because English doesn't have grammatically gendered nouns. To me, calling a woman "Thor" instead of "Thora" just sounds wrong. And I kinda resent the idea that calling her "Thora" would be any dumber — isn't the idea that a woman has to retain the masculine form of the name when taking the thunder god's power kind of a slap in the face of actual women who are named by the feminine version?

edited 7th Dec '15 2:27:14 AM by DrDougsh

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#47738: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:34:14 AM

We have at least one judge called Judge, it's both his name and his title. Thor Odinson is just that, he's like judge Judge, his name is Thor and his title is Thor, the person who took over from judge Judge is still titled judge, likewise judge Judge is still called Judg even though he's no longer a judge, because Judge happens to also be his given name.

The same word being used as both a job title and a name happens in real life, that's also what's happening here.

edited 7th Dec '15 2:37:45 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47739: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:38:26 AM

Thor being a title is dumb and should stop being a thing.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#47740: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:39:27 AM

[up][up] So, what, are we to take it that Thor was named after a position that preceded him, and has been held by other people?

edited 7th Dec '15 2:39:40 AM by DrDougsh

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47741: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:43:06 AM

It's not like Odin or Loki are also titles.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#47742: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:48:14 AM

[up][up] Sure, or maybe his naming was weird and he was named after a title that had yet to become a title, time can get wobbly wobbly at times.

[up] Are we sure of that?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#47743: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:54:37 AM

What I'm gathering is that the name/title "Thor" is a bit like "Caesar". Originally, "Caesar" was just part of Julius Caesar's name, but the Roman Emperors who came after him wanted to establish themselves as being part of a legacy of leadership, so they took to assuming the name "Caesar" when they ascended to power, until eventually the word "Caesar" became almost synonymous with "Emperor". Heck, the German word for "king" ("kaisar") is directly derived from "Caesar".

So there is a precedant for the same thing happening with Thor.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#47744: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:57:18 AM

But if Loki usurped Odin and the way it worked was that he became known as Odin, does that mean the man actually named Odin who used to serve as Odin can't be called Odin anymore even though that's his name?

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#47745: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:58:19 AM

[up][up] Well, yes, but that happened because Caesar's relatives became the imperial line, establishing a tradition for every emperor having the surname Caesar. It's not like Mark Antony would have suddenly decided to call himself that if he'd won out against Augustus.

edited 7th Dec '15 2:59:40 AM by DrDougsh

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47746: Dec 7th 2015 at 3:00:27 AM

Odin's title is King of Asgard. Loki and Thor's title is Prince of Asgard. I refuse to acknowledge any other titles, especially ones that also happen to be the character's name.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#47747: Dec 7th 2015 at 3:00:30 AM

So, what, are we to take it that Thor was named after a position that preceded him, and has been held by other people?

No. In story the name came first. But those who hold Mjolnir hold the power of Thor and are called such as a result. Jane, Eric (and orinally Donald) are named after the God of Thunder.

[up][up][up][up]Exactly.

[up][up][up]No. See, Odinson decision to renounce his name was personal. Also, his name is still technically 'Thor Odinson', even if he isn't using his forename.

edited 7th Dec '15 3:08:04 AM by Heatth

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47748: Dec 7th 2015 at 3:26:36 AM

Well, a good thing that this particular idea hasn't made it into the MCU yet....

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#47749: Dec 7th 2015 at 5:03:36 AM

Personally, I used to hate romance in superhero movies because they were usually shallow and unneeded. I am a bit more moderate nowaday: I do enjoy them, but I think they should serve as a tool to develop the characters rather than just be there for the sake of it. In that regard, Tony/Pepper and Cap/Carter were both good examples of romance, in that they both help flesh out the characters involved (bonus point for the latter, since Carter gets developped in her own series as well rather than just Cap). Natasha/Bruce was in theory potentially good, but in practice... I am not sure how to put it, it just didn't work. Scott and Hope was funny as a small gag, but in the end didn't bring much to the plot that they couldn't have done with them being just friends. And Thor/Jane... Well, it was just a bit too cliché to me.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#47750: Dec 7th 2015 at 5:10:43 AM

Dudes (and you know it's all dudes), Jane is Thor. Get over it. Y'all didn't have a problem when another dude (Eric Masterson, Donald Blake) became Thor, so why is it a problem with a woman becomes Thor?


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