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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#47401: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:34:14 PM

The movie never explicitly says it was an act for power alone. His Motive Rant to Fury suggests he really thought he'd be bringing peace.
I want to insert that Brooklyn Nine-Nine gif here, where Jake says, "Cool motive. Still murder." Because that's what you are saying, that somehow that because his motives are somewhat good, that justifies him trying to murder millions and millions of people. Because it doesn't.

Just repeat to yourself: Cool motive. Still murder.

edited 1st Dec '15 4:35:31 PM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47402: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:39:56 PM

I think the most poignant scene is the one in which Fury says that Pierce rejected a Nobel price because he didn't consider working for peace as something one just does.

Fury is constantly hovering at the line. Pierce is an example of what happens if you loose sight of said line. And that is so terrifying about him. When we see him, we see something dangerous in ourselves.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#47403: Dec 1st 2015 at 5:14:25 PM

Good guys justify lots of killing all the time. For instance, Steve killed tons of people with bringing down the Helicarriers. And he'd say it was for peace.

Was he justified? I'd say so, of course. But to a Hydra agent (or Ultron), he'd look like the killer. Motives matter.

edited 1st Dec '15 5:15:02 PM by Tuckerscreator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#47404: Dec 1st 2015 at 5:15:41 PM

Killing and murder aren't the same thing. The Helicarrier staff were enemy combatants, which makes them casualties of war. The people being targeted by Insight were civilian targets both foreign and domestic, making them murders.

edited 1st Dec '15 5:16:14 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#47405: Dec 1st 2015 at 5:38:50 PM

[up][up][up][up] No need to be condescending, alliterator. I don't think that anyone was trying to excuse Pierce's actions - they're just saying his motives and the way they're presented add more nuance to his character than, say, Malekith.

Oh God! Natural light!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#47406: Dec 1st 2015 at 5:40:49 PM

[up][up]Indeed. But the distinction is blurrier for each character. Steve is fine with killing threats, but "the punishment comes after the crime". Fury is fine with killing threats before they are to prevent them from ever becoming threats. He only differs from Pierce in their choice of who is a threat and who isn't, and realizing that is what leads him on the path away from SHIELD.

Pierce isn't justified. He just thought he was.

edited 1st Dec '15 5:43:53 PM by Tuckerscreator

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#47407: Dec 1st 2015 at 5:47:45 PM

Again: Nobody defends Pierce, but a BUNCH of people defend Loki in spite of wanting... fairly similar things, all things considered. Loki and the Chitauri would have killed most of the human population, just like Pierce.

Of course, what Pierce didn't realize is that if he re-ran the algorithm afterward the first shot from the helicarriers it would have told him to slaughter enough people that the human population would stop being viable and whoops the idiot just rendered us extinct.

edited 1st Dec '15 5:58:27 PM by ultimatepheer

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#47408: Dec 1st 2015 at 5:55:19 PM

I'm trying to think of a situation where Steve killed someone that wasn't actively attacking him or a civilian. Has that ever happened?

edited 1st Dec '15 5:55:52 PM by Kostya

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#47409: Dec 1st 2015 at 5:56:42 PM

People defend Loki because he's prettier than Pierce.

My various fanfics.
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#47410: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:08:04 PM

I'm trying to remember Steve and Bucky's final battle on the helicarrier. I think Steve was going all out against Bucky right up until he disabled the helicarrier, after which he topped fighting Bucky and started trying to save him. I just think it's a great example of Steve's views on killing; don't kill unless more lives are at stake.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#47411: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:20:30 PM

Nope, even then he was holding back. Dislocating his arm, choking him unconscious to make him drop the card, but even then his moves were mainly defensive.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#47412: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:26:48 PM

Of course, what Pierce didn't realize is that if he re-ran the algorithm afterward the first shot from the helicarriers it would have told him to slaughter enough people that the human population would stop being viable and whoops the idiot just rendered us extinct.

Honestly, I'm not sure if that would've been the case. The first round with the helicarriers were designed to take out anyone who looked like they might rebel against them, based on their history. Their plan was that the rest of the living people would be too cowed in fear to rise up, especially since the second someone starts to mutter rebellious words, a bullet drops from the sky and kills them mid-sentence.

edited 1st Dec '15 6:35:15 PM by Tuckerscreator

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#47413: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:31:02 PM

I'm trying to think of a situation where Steve killed someone that wasn't actively attacking him or a civilian. Has that ever happened?

There was Sitwell, who he and Widow kidnapped and threatened based on a guess that he might be Hydra. But even there he clearly wasn't planning on killing him. Still extreme, though.

Perhaps Steve vs. Pierce isn't the better comparison, but Fury vs. Pierce. As mentioned before, they had the same goal, just different targets. Their choice of targets may have even overlapped. Hydra would have no further reason to leave the Ten Rings running around causing chaos, or wherever Batroc's mercenaries came from.

edited 1st Dec '15 6:32:27 PM by Tuckerscreator

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#47414: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:34:08 PM

[up][up]Unless it took into account everyone who would be galvanized into action by nigh-genocide, I doubt it would be that effective.

It would also run into the slight problem of not being NEAR enough to kill Thor, but being plenty enough to kill his girlfriend.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#47415: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:36:21 PM

[up][up]That doesn't count because they never planned to kill Sitwell. They didn't even really torture him.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#47416: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:42:55 PM

Torture doesn't need physical pain. And look how the scene looks if the viewer hadn't seen beforehand that Sitwell was a part of Hydra.

Cap and Widow have learned the Lemurian Star launched a satellite with HYDRA's algorithm. They recall that Sitwell was an officer on the boat, so they find him and threaten to kill him if he doesn't get in their car. When they have him and all he'll do is insist he has no idea what they're talking about, they toss him off a high rise and he genuinely thinks he'll die. And all they had to go on was "Sitwell was on the boat, right? Maybe he's Hydra. *Kick!*" What if he wasn't Hydra and just a random agent who knew nothing that they're tossing off the building over and over?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#47417: Dec 1st 2015 at 6:50:53 PM

He gets a free ride from Falcon, which is pretty cool.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47418: Dec 1st 2015 at 7:48:50 PM

"Loki and the Chitauri would have killed most of the human population"

Where are you getting that?

I mean that obviously is Thanos' goal, but IIRC Loki's stated intention is basically to take over New York (center of the universe, obviously) and defeat the Avengers and somehow that would enable him to take over the world.

My impression (and perhaps I'm being an apologist) was that the Chitauri were there as more of a Gunboat Diplomacy type deal to crush anyone who challenged him. Unlike Pierce, it was not Loki's intention to kill most of the world's population (or "at least" millions of people).

Now I can definitely see Thanos coming in and wiping out Earth after Loki took over (because that's basically how Thanos rolls) but I think it's a serious case of Ron the Death Eater to assert that Loki would have killed anywhere near as many people as Pierce planned to.

edited 1st Dec '15 7:53:02 PM by Hodor2

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#47419: Dec 1st 2015 at 7:51:47 PM

I felt as though Loki would have ordered the Chitauri to stop eventually... and they would have completely ignored him and gone on to slaughter most of earth's population.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47420: Dec 1st 2015 at 7:53:30 PM

Ah. That does seem likely then.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#47421: Dec 1st 2015 at 8:03:08 PM

I'm still trying to "see" Loki's actor as a "pretty boy". Except for that he looks willowy when in the same frame as Thor - I'm having tough time seeing him as "pretty". Actually, am having a hard time qualifying him as "standard handsome".

He reminds me of Cumberbatch. In the unconventional attractiveness sense.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#47422: Dec 1st 2015 at 8:09:43 PM

Well, Cumberbatch's attractiveness is....nonexistant, LOL.

(at least, IMO.)

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#47424: Dec 1st 2015 at 9:47:04 PM

Y'know, I don't get the argument some people make that Loki was out of character in The Avengers. Prior to that movie, Loki barely had any characterization.

You have to remember, Loki spent almost the entirety of Thor lying through his teeth; everything he said or did was part of an act. The mask only comes off at the very end of the movie, just long enough for him to give a Motive Rant and have a fight with Thor. At that point in the MCU, we simply hadn't seen enough of Loki's real personality to say if this megalomaniacal plan was in-character or not.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#47425: Dec 2nd 2015 at 3:28:08 AM

[up]Eeeeeh, No. His shock over finding out he was an adopted frost giant was pretty real. So were his desire to prove his value to Odin and his trickster tendencies. These sound like characterizations to me. He couldn't be lying in all the parts where we see him. Or are you arguing he faked shock when finding out about his true origins so he would cause Odin to fall into the Odinsleep? Because that's pretty ridiculous.

True, he was lying through a good chunk of Thor, but we still got a good look at what he was like even back then.

edited 2nd Dec '15 3:29:14 AM by Theokal3


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