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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47376: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:24:32 PM

[up][up]Well, Thor 1 is basically a Shakespeare play.

edited 1st Dec '15 12:24:54 PM by Swanpride

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#47377: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:38:21 PM

Just to clarify: I am not saying Loki was bad in Avengers 1. In fact as far as I am concerned, he was good in all three movies; his Thor 1 self had believable motivations and a sympathetic side that set him apart from most MCU villains even now (seriously, Kilgrave is the only villain I can think of to date who was as well developpped... with Kingpin not far behind); his Avengers 1 self was more dickish, but still entertaining to watch. As for Dark World, well... let's face it, he stole that movie.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#47378: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:52:56 PM

[up] I think Pierce was a good villain - I don't know if I'd call him deep, but Robert Redford plays him well, and his motives and backstory help to make him more than a mustache-twirling villain, though.

He's still evil, though - on both a grand scale (Project Insight) and a personal scale (his treatment of Bucky).

Oh God! Natural light!
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#47379: Dec 1st 2015 at 1:22:34 PM

[up]Pierce was good motivation-wise, but when it comes to charisma or entertaining, he was pretty standard. He was more of a political thriller villain than a supervillain. The "super"-villain role was more filled by Bucky, who I am hesitant to confirm as a villain or not (though I will admit that he was a pretty effective antagonist as well).

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#47380: Dec 1st 2015 at 1:24:00 PM

Would Loki know that he was being mind controlled?
Both Hawkeye and Selvig knew they had been brainwashed after the brainwashing wore off. Loki never even mentioned being brainwashed at the end of the film or the next Thor film. So no, he wasn't brainwashed by the Mind Stone.

As for the characterization, they explained that away with Loki having been changed by his experiences traveling through space and meeting the Other/Thanos.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#47381: Dec 1st 2015 at 1:28:20 PM

[up][up] See, I kind of liked that. I certainly thought Redford gave a charismatic performance.

Oh God! Natural light!
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47382: Dec 1st 2015 at 1:37:14 PM

[up][up]

That's a fair point. I guess hypothetically (and I know this is my Fanon Discontinuity) I see the sceptre as having a sort of One Ring style effect on him. So like Loki mind controls other people with it, but it also has an effect on him of which he's unaware.

[up] I thought he was good too. Gave some depth to the somewhat stock "political conspiracy villain".

edited 1st Dec '15 1:37:59 PM by Hodor2

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#47383: Dec 1st 2015 at 1:38:27 PM

[up][up]Again, he wasn't bad, just...not the kind of villain I would like to see in a superhero movie. He worked as an antagonist, but as what a super-villain is supposed to be according to me (a Worthy Opponent who can match the superhero and has something memorable), not so much.

edited 1st Dec '15 1:38:46 PM by Theokal3

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#47384: Dec 1st 2015 at 1:42:47 PM

I think Loki was being influenced by the Mind Stone to some extent, at least. The philosophy he spouts off in Stuttgart and reverence toward the Tesseract sound a bit deluded, and IIRC his eyes are actually a different color in The Avengers than they were in either of the two Thor movies.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#47385: Dec 1st 2015 at 1:43:24 PM

There's a deleted scene that hints at Loki possibly being influenced by the staff, but I assumed they cut it out precisely because they wanted Loki to be his own villain in the plot while Thanos was The Man Behind the Man, rather than making the plot outright about Thanos controlling things.

It's the same reason why they never out and say "Thanos was influencing Ultron to do all those inconsistent schemes." It's implied to an extent, but the plot is about Ultron's goals, not Thanos'.

edited 1st Dec '15 1:45:22 PM by KnownUnknown

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#47386: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:02:33 PM

The idea that Loki was brainwashed lets him get away with all the terrible shit he does, which isn't something I want.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#47387: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:03:37 PM

Except for all the shit he does in Thor 1 or all the shit he does in Thor 2

and the fact he doesn't even show any remorse for what he does in Avengers.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47388: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:05:33 PM

I don't see what value there is in Loki being brainwashed for the entirety of The Avengers.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47389: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:09:53 PM

It's not so much "get away with the shit" in Avengers as much as that absent the sceptre, he would have done different shit and acted less like a Nazi while doing it.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47390: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:12:17 PM

Pierce was a great villain. Just because he isn't flashy doesn't meant that Marvel didn't do really well in this movie. Plus, Hydra as a whole is a great villain, too. Best villainous organisation so far, by a long shot.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47391: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:13:18 PM

One thing I've noted with Pierce is that I think the movie is good about allowing the viewer to read into his political views as they desire.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47392: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:16:07 PM

Meaning you can think he's right or totally full of shit?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47393: Dec 1st 2015 at 3:18:33 PM

That but also like there's as much evidence for him being a liberal politician as a conservative one and in regard to the latter, the movie avoids making him some kind of Dick Cheneyesque warmonger.

As for Hydra as a whole, it is something that the movie is able to maintain suspension of disbelief and make the reveal chilling rather than comical.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#47394: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:08:27 PM

That but also like there's as much evidence for him being a liberal politician as a conservative one and in regard to the latter, the movie avoids making him some kind of Dick Cheneyesque warmonger.
Except for the fact that that was all an act and what he really wanted was to kill millions and millions of people and control the world.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47395: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:09:23 PM

What is so great about Redford's performance is that my mind told me the moment his character turned up that he is most likely the bad guy. But he played the "worried leader" so convincing, I was actually starting to doubt my initial assessment and was wondering if he might be a red herring. The moment when the Winter Soldier turned up in his kitchen was truly suspenseful for me because I really wasn't sure in which direction they would go at this point. That's the main reason why I like this character so much more than Stane, who is so clearly evil that I never understood how Tony could fall for his façade.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#47396: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:18:11 PM

The Sokovia Accords, according to the Phase 2 Box Set.

I love how they list off the names of the individuals and then suddenly there's just "Vision." Not even "John Vision" or "Max Vision," just "Vision."

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#47397: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:18:31 PM

[up][up][up] Exactly. HYDRA is as Fascist as it gets, and Pierce being in charge leaves little doubt about where his political allegiance lies.

Fascists don't tend to be left-leaning.

edited 1st Dec '15 4:20:36 PM by higherbrainpattern

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#47398: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:19:31 PM

[up][up][up][up]

It's possible for someone to do horrible horrible things in the name of a "good" ideal without being a Straw Traitor. I mean, there are some people on the far left who genuinely care about the plight of the poor and downtrodden but will defend the morality of Stalin's purges, mainly considering them wrong because Stalin himself was a bad person who directed these purges towards the "wrong" sort of people for selfish reasons rather than to benefit society, but that the act of removing undesirables en masse for the sake of long-term peace is itself not immoral.

edited 1st Dec '15 4:49:36 PM by AlleyOop

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#47399: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:23:06 PM

The movie never explicitly says it was an act for power alone. His Motive Rant to Fury suggests he really thought he'd be bringing peace. And that's important because it's how Fury sees how little kept him from turning into Pierce. If it was just a fascist power grab then they could've replaced Pierce with the Red Skull and nothing would change.

edited 1st Dec '15 4:23:38 PM by Tuckerscreator

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#47400: Dec 1st 2015 at 4:27:19 PM

You know it's weird.

We hate the guy who brings up good points to defend his genocide attempt and love the guy who justifies his genocide attempt with "You can't stop me."

Huh.


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