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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#47351: Dec 1st 2015 at 10:13:47 AM

Atm, I'm more upset that the creators went with the easier "just make them a villain" instead of the more complicated "anti-villain" route, which seems to be the case with The Avengers movie.

Here's hoping for an extended version or director's cut.

As for fandom and leather pants, I'm trying to be patient with it. It's the Ron the Death Eater thing that's annoying me. I don't want to feel bad for Odin and the Warriors 3, especially since I'm already "wincing" for Jane Foster.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47352: Dec 1st 2015 at 10:17:19 AM

[up][up]It's easy to ignore those fans, though. And I am currently more annoyed with fans who complain about Leatherpantsing than those who actually do it. Have you seen the Jessica Jones discussion? A lot of people who were complaining that the female fans would be all over Kilgrave (even before the show aired), no one who actually tried to explain away his actions.

Huh, I didn't know that there are food stereotypes for races, too. I mean, I know that I apparently drink a lot of beer (hate it), eat Weißwurst (only if I must, give me a Bratwurst instead!), Pork (I am not picky, I eat more or less every kind of meat) and bread (yep, love it, but so does everyone else who has ever tasted proper bread), but I only encountered stuff like this in relation to countries, not races.

edited 1st Dec '15 10:20:05 AM by Swanpride

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#47353: Dec 1st 2015 at 10:18:42 AM

I think Loki has been a decent Anti-Villain for the most part. It was only in Avengers 1 that he was a stereotypical douchebag, and that might have more to do with Whedon's bad writing habits.

RE: deleted scenes, I usually assume they're canon unless something explicitly contradicts them. For example all the stuff in TWS that was cut mostly for pacing reasons like the basketball court and Widow's chat with Pierce, and the veil, I treat as if it still happened offscreen.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#47354: Dec 1st 2015 at 10:27:58 AM

Eh. In my opinion, Avengers 1 Loki had just gone through a lot of messed up things during his little trip in space and that left him both more cynical and less sane than he was before. Not trying to justify his actions obviously, because he still was an asshole during that movie; I am just saying that from a scenaristic point of view, his attitude in that movie made sense.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47355: Dec 1st 2015 at 10:29:06 AM

I actually like Avengers 1 Loki the most *shrugs*.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47356: Dec 1st 2015 at 10:39:12 AM

I actually have a thing for Thor the Dark World Loki...he is so deliciously messed up in this one.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#47357: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:09:32 AM

I was just OK, you need a villain, it's an action flick. Basically, no plans to be a critic when I first watched The Avengers movie.

But... if Loki was also mentally coerced by glow stick of destiny, right now, I think it should had been made more clear. So at least I know how to categorize the blue-green eyes thing.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#47358: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:23:35 AM

There is nothing at all to suggest that Loki was being controlled by the scepter. That's is complete and utter fanon.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47359: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:28:34 AM

It's easy to recon, though. You can either say that he was controlled and Hulk smashing him into the ground freed him, or that ending up defeated was actually his plan all along.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#47360: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:28:38 AM

Loki wasn't controlled by the Mind Gem.

He might've been sort of forced to do what Thanos wanted but he was also given incentives to fight and conquer Earth.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#47361: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:35:34 AM

Influenced maybe but in a nudging sort of way. Pushing him along where he's going anyway.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#47362: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:40:53 AM

The Other outright tortures Loki at one point while he stands there and takes it like a wounded animal who's learned not to fight back. He was under at least some coercion. It's not clear if it was the Mind Gem or mundane tactics, but nobody - especially someone like Loki - would willingly subject themselves to torture by their allies if they were negotiating on equal ground.

The movie also has nearly every character point out that Loki's plan is nonsense and his behavior is gibberish. He's pretty consistently depicted as Thanos's broken peon.

edited 1st Dec '15 11:43:51 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#47363: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:42:26 AM

But not by the Mind Stone - at least, after Loki loses the scepter and after he is defeated, he never tries to convince anyone that he was being mind controlled.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#47364: Dec 1st 2015 at 11:44:43 AM

I do agree that Loki was probably brought in line through more traditional methods of establishing dominance.

But he was definitely not acting 100% on his own initiative. If I had to describe Loki's behavior in Avengers in one word, that word would be "Desperate."

edited 1st Dec '15 11:45:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#47365: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:02:40 PM

about lather pantsing is pretty much said it: fans(more fangirls that anything else) tend to absolve a villian because he is charming and handsome which it just show how strong beauty equal goodness(just look supernatural fandom) is.

On the other hand male fandom tend to overlook a lot of shit as long the chararter is badass or look like one like vegeta: he destroy half of a mart art stadium,killing hundred of people and give his soul to babidi because he wants to fight goku, no mattet that have been years since the last time and he already have a family and kids...nope, he have to fight him NOW! and yet is almighty warrior(even when he is worft half of the time) with solf heart....give me a break.

So with loki, in thor 1 is for me the most sympathic of all since the movie left out the implication that Odin plan to used Loki as political ticket in case the frost gigant act funny, in avenger it feel he made a deal with Thanos and is scared of falling while in thor 2, he just a dick with daddy issues.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#47366: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:05:46 PM

I also want to add in regards to the leather pantsing that while female villains are less likely to have their sins absolved by the fandom, their crimes are also not treated with the same level of severity.

A male villain is more likely to cross the Moral Event Horizon than a female through the exact same actions, because with the female villain, fans never stop holding out hope for the High-Heel–Face Turn or, at the very least, for their hero to start Dating Catwoman. She could be Female Hitler and still be a sex object first and a villain second.

edited 1st Dec '15 12:06:25 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47367: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:06:37 PM

Would Loki know that he was being mind controlled? I like the mind controlled theory myself as a way of explaining why Loki is kind of out-of-character in The Avengers having this whole Dystopia Justifies the Means/ The Evils of Free Will shtick that seems to be more in character for Thanos/Ronan than it does for him.

And as "evidence", just like Hawkeye, he acts more normal (read is broken out of mind control) once he has the shit beaten out of him. And he acts more normal in the subsequent film when he no longer has the staff.

Either that, or Joss Whedon doesn't know how to right the character/needed a villain for the movie and thought Loki would do.

On the broader issue, I think it's a problem when people's liking for a character goes so far that a character's flaws are ignored and their victims are painted as the villains. But I also see the opposite extreme of denying a character's good qualities or even thinking that it's bad that they have them.

Like for the former, it's one thing to sympathize with/pity Erik in Phantom Of The Opera, because he is deserving of sympathy and pity. it's another to believe that he's the ideal romantic partner (as opposed to an abusive Stalker with a Crush) and to take that so that the author of the work actually writes a retcon sequel in line with fanon's interpretation of the character.

As for the latter, while I can kind of understand Grant Morrison's desire to deconstruct Magneto, I don't think it really better serves the character to have him as a genocidal maniac than it does as an Anti-Villain (which is pretty much my thought on Whedon's Loki versus that of other MCU films- although Morrison's Magneto is way more egregious/Whedon actually likes Loki).

Edit- I also see the same issue with vampires (including the sexism against female fans). It's like yeah, Twilight is not a great work either on its own or in the "vampire mythos" but I think it's equally or more stupid to insist that vampires have to be Always Chaotic Evil leeches and any work with a non-evil vampire should be dismissed out of hand.

edited 1st Dec '15 12:08:52 PM by Hodor2

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47368: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:09:12 PM

[up][up][up]You should see the actual Dragon Ball thread. It is unanimously agreed there that the reason Vegeta works as a character is because he is constantly used as the universe's punching bag, making up for his horrible life choices.

edited 1st Dec '15 12:09:26 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47369: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:14:20 PM

The Daddy issue part is easily the least interesting part about Loki. The interesting part is that he is suffering under internalized racism. That he is jealous of Thor and thinks that Odin loves him less is not really what pushes him over the edge. It's the discovery that he is an ice giant. It IS painful to constantly see him convincing himself that nobody can truly love him because of that. This combination of self-hatred and arrogance is what makes him so compelling. Well, and he is a smart villain. I like smart villains.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#47370: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:18:45 PM

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging a villain, male or female, as being physically attractive. It's attempting to excuse or apologize for their actions, the "I can change them" mindset, and "I'd date them even though they'd undoubtedly be abusive and toxic at best, and I'd be accomplice to their crimes at worst" that are problematic.

I mean, they're fictional characters anyway, so it's not like you're actually aiding and abetting a real-life villain, it just doesn't speak well about your taste in men/women.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47371: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:20:03 PM

Fun fact: mythology Loki was HIDEOUS.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#47372: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:20:44 PM

mythology Loki was a shapeshifter...he could look however he wanted to look....

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#47373: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:21:36 PM

He just chose to look HIDEOUS most of the time.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#47374: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:22:28 PM

@Swanpride-

Glad you brought that up. I was thinking about that recently.

I know one troper has stated that Loki's story/excuse was already told with Commodus in Gladiator, and I think that's a misunderstanding, despite the fact that Loki's self-justification to Odin in Dark World sounds a lot like self-justification offered by Commodus to his father, Marcus Aurelias.

Commodus by birth would be expected to be heir and his father passes him over knowing that his son is evil.

Loki was not first in line for the throne (IIRC he believed himself to be the younger brother). However, he (rightly at this point) saw Thor as the Wrongful Heir To The Throne. While Loki was already somewhat evil at this point, Odin was unaware of that. What sends Loki over the edge is finding out that he's a Frost Giant because he realizes that's why he was passed over for rulership, and so he tries to prove he's a true Asgardian (by genociding his own race).

[up] No? I've never heard that before. I know Loki was traditionally drawn as ugly in Marvel comics, but way before Tom Hiddleston, every account I've heard of Mythological!Loki is off a good-looking and somewhat effeminate (which the Norse hated) guy.

edited 1st Dec '15 12:24:46 PM by Hodor2

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#47375: Dec 1st 2015 at 12:24:25 PM

I much prefer Guile Hero 616 Loki to "Nobody Understands Me!" MCU Loki, to be honest. I'm really hoping we get to see Kid Loki in the films at some point.

EDIT: I honestly don't think Loki even intended for Thor to be exiled in the first movie. The impression I got off him was that he was the trickster, setting up his brother for a fall that Went Horribly Right. As [up] noted, Loki didn't seem to grasp the reins of true villainy until he discovered he was a Frost Giant.

edited 1st Dec '15 12:26:04 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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