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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I loved the messiness of Jessica Jones, you guys. The degree to which the series is willing to mow down potential endpoints rather than drag its feet getting to one is honestly thrilling and adds a real air of unpredictability to the proceedings.
edited 23rd Nov '15 8:58:32 AM by Wackd
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.No they can't. Investment in them can be, but the stakes themselves are what they are.
Either way, it's not even particularly a criticism. It's not "I didn't like Jessica Jones because the stakes were too low." It's "I liked Daredevil a bit better because it had higher stakes (and cooler fights)." It's just a method of comparing preference. You disagree with others, and that's also completely valid.
Wack'd: Let's not forget that Winter Soldier has, y'know, the Winter Soldier. A.K.A. Bucky Barnes, Steve's "dead" best friend. He's not out for revenge, but it's just as personal for him as it is for Thor to have to fight Loki.
I'm also not sure who you're referring to as Agents of SHIELD's villain.
Unrelated: For the record, I haven't actually watched either Netflix series yet. Maybe the first two episodes of Daredevil. I got busy, and the plan is now to save them for my pre-Phase 3 binge of every movie, one-shot, and TV show (up to date with the most recent release before Civil War). I'm just interpreting other people.
edited 23rd Nov '15 9:04:26 AM by BadWolf21
Eh, fair. There's a part of me that wants to dispute that because Steve doesn't actually find out it's Bucky until halfway through the movie, by which point he's firmly invested, but that's kinda nitpicky.
To clarify what I mean about messy: There are moments which feel a little bit contrived and others which I feel were placed oddly and therefore didn't have the impact they could have. For example Malcom being the same guy Jessica rescued was a really big coincidence, as was the fact that Kilgrave controlled the one police officer in New York involved in a secret government program. The latter you could have easily cleaned up by introducing Nuke earlier as someone sneaking around Jessica because she is already on the radar of the government and making this as the reason he ended up on Kilgrave's radar. I also didn't understand why Kilgrave was suddenly ordering his minions to kill/hurt Jessica. And sometimes his abilities were not really that clear cut described. First they say that he can't control anyone when he is knocked out with narcotics, but then the neighbour still acts as female bomb. So do his orders stand or not? If they do, why didn't he allow himself to get put under? It also doesn't help that the show decides to set up a new plot line in the last two episodes. Daredevil also did some world building for the future, but there it was set up early on in the series, so it didn't feel like an afterthought.
Those all seem like really small contrivances/plot holes, honestly. Specifically, Simpson hadn't been in the program for a while, why shouldn't Kilgrave take him to just be a random cop? And he really only orders his minions to hurt Jessica when his life's at risk. Maybe the old lady didn't know what was in the box and saw no reason not to deliver it? I mean. None of these things pulled me out while I was watching so I see no reason to worry about them now.
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For the neighbor thing, I thought that Kilgrave's orders still apply when he's knocked out but he just can't give out any new ones. Maybe, for the kidney transplant thing, he wasn't sure about how long the surgery would take so he didn't want to take any chances just in case his control wore out before the surgery was over. Though, granted, 12 hours is an awful long time for a surgery...
Oh! One abrupt twist that stuck out to me mid-series: the number they give for Kilgrave's orders wearing off is 10-12 hours, as though it varies or it's only really possible to guess. At about the time Kilgrave traps Jessica in her childhood home, 12 hours starts to get treated like a hard-and-fast rule. Similarly, I spent most of the series assuming "distance" meant, y'know, if you get far enough a way it cuts down on how long his control lasts, but once Kilgrave starts trying to boost his powers it becomes a matter of how far away he is when he gives an order. I dunno if any of these are plot holes exactly, but they stuck out to me.
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.Yes, those are mostly small details, but they keep adding up during the show, and I would have liked for them to smooth them out a little bit more. It was still a good show, but I felt it could have been even better...but then, I felt the same concerning Daredevil. There is still some room for improvement for both shows.
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None of those seem like plot holes, actually. They use twelve hours as a hard rule because it seems like twelve hours is the max that his suggestions hold, even though they could wear off quicker if you are away from him longer. And the distance thing is just how his powers work - the farther away from him you are, you don't breathe in the virus/pheromones and you won't do what he says. Therefore, most everyone in the audience shut up, but the ones in the back didn't.
As for the messiness: I have no problems with it, but I can see that it would be frustrating. There is a lot of starting back on square one: Jessica captures Kilgrave, but he escapes, she captures Kilgrave again, and he escapes again. The only difference then is that she now knows that she can resist his suggestions. But there is a lot of wheel-spinning - it just never bugged me because the interactions between characters just made everything else so interesting.
edited 23rd Nov '15 9:43:25 AM by alliterator
I mean, I'd say Price appeared to be the villain for multiple episodes, too. The show hasn't actually stopped treating her like someone to be suspicious of since she showed up, and has made a huge question out of how genuine she's being at any given time.
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.![]()
Thanks...I think you just put in words my biggest trouble with the show. In the end it is a great ride but everything which happens to reach the conclusion feels kind of unnecessary, because Hope is right in the very beginning. Jessica should have simply killed him. If she had done that the moment he was in reach, his parents were still alive, the support group would still exist and a lot of people wouldn't have suffered. The only reason she keeps delaying the unavoidable is because she wants to rescue Hope...and Hope dies two episodes before the end. So everything Jessica did feels useless in the end. It would perhaps felt less useless if they had clarified that the public was believing into Kilgrave existing in the end, if his victims got some sort of satisfaction. That wouldn't have been as dark, though. Still the end feels kind of empty. It doesn't really feel like any kind of win, which is typical for the film noir genre, but it doesn't feels like a true loss either. It is something vague inbetween.
Yes, Jessica should have killed Kilgrave to begin with, but then again, Jessica is completely and utterly a mess. She thought that by saving Hope and prove she didn't kill her parents, she could save herself.
But I don't understand about the support group. They are all still alive thanks to Jessica, aside from Kilgrave's mother. They just don't meet together anymore.
Also for everything Jessica did being useless and things having a downer ending and such. Well, that's pretty much noir.
edited 23rd Nov '15 10:16:12 AM by alliterator
I had a thing to say about "Jessica shoud've killed Kilgrave" on Tumblr, gonna cross-post it here.
The problem is that there is also a pressing need to prove Kilgrave’s abilities exist to the courts and to the public. Even if Kilgrave does get killed, we know for a fact there are other mind controlling villains in this universe, and their victims–who are often made to do terrible things–need legal precedent to excuse their actions and the ability to obtain mental health services without being laughed at. But the show treats the need to exonerate Hope as the only reason to collect evidence, and once her plotline’s resolved, murder is suddenly treated as the only legitimate option. That’s bullshit.
Moreover, the need to kill Kilgrave is just less interesting from a narrative standpoint. Getting the man to commit mind control on camera in a way that’d be indisputable to anyone watching is far more difficult than committing murder, especially when our lead has the strength advantage.
Spoilers, people, this is the general marvel thread, some people are just looking for news about the new Marvel movies. Case in point
should be spoiled.
edited 23rd Nov '15 10:37:19 AM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."![]()
Wack'd: I completely understand, but remember also at that point, they had already tried to keep Kilgrave and force him to show his mind control powers. And it worked...except that the evidence was destroyed. Kilgrave destroys all evidence of his powers. So how do you prove a man has mind control powers like that? Force him? How? They already tried and they certainly can't try again, because his parents are both dead now.
I think Jeri actually came up with kind of a brilliant solution: threaten to make everyone at the docks testify to what Kilgrave forced them to do and you suddenly either have to believe that a group of police officers and random people were all mind controlled...or all of them went crazy at once. And since Jessica was released, it's implied now that people do believe her.
edited 23rd Nov '15 11:02:00 AM by alliterator
It's Wack'd.
I am, ultimately, satisfied with the things fell out, for the record. I thought we were saying Jessica should've been trying to kill Kilgrave from the beginning, which didn't sit right with me.
edited 23rd Nov '15 10:47:33 AM by Wackd
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.Wack'd, spoiler tag your previous post please.
edited 23rd Nov '15 10:49:58 AM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I...um...I'm not entirely sure what in that post is a spoiler, honestly.
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

I was probably thinking of someone off this site critiquing the plot for having more episodes than it needed, and misread what Swanpride said about the the plot being "messy" as the same type of critique.