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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#46776: Nov 22nd 2015 at 2:58:11 PM

[up] I hope they do explore IGH in the second season. I get the feeling that that's what the second season of Jessica Jones will most likely be about.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#46777: Nov 22nd 2015 at 3:58:51 PM

It was very interesting seeing a TV show where everyone from the arbitrary group I belong to was either a villain or had done villainous things. And sure it's just the one show, the other shows have plenty of positive people from my group, but I don't know, it just feels like maybe the show runners have something against British people? tongue

Seriously though It was interesting to see all the white men be evil or stuffed in the fridge, it didn't give me any new insight or anything but it was interesting none the less and something I don't object to in the slightest.

edited 22nd Nov '15 3:59:16 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46778: Nov 22nd 2015 at 4:25:06 PM

I'm a white guy but I didn't even notice the fact that all of the heroes were women and minorities. It is a nice change of pace though.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#46779: Nov 22nd 2015 at 5:18:15 PM

It's a fantastic change of pace and when you think about it sort of speaks to certain real world issues, like how easy it is to dismiss mind control and the victims were waved off, a good number of them being various social minorities sort of can equate it to how a lot of the time we try to talk about discrimination implicit or otherwise and because people in positions of power don't experience it they assume it's not real.

God, this is interesting, and that was only one angle I noticed, there are so many others. If I was a media student I would write about this show. Maybe when I eventually get back to college.

The Blog The Art
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46780: Nov 22nd 2015 at 9:22:40 PM

I'm personally cautious about reading messages about "the ______ experience" into stories that don't have that as an overt theme. Stories with white male protagonists aren't expected to be specifically about the white male experience, while stories about women or minorities are frequently interpreted as being about what it's like to be a woman or a minority (at least if they're in a genre or medium where female and/or minority characters are uncommon). That's baggage not every storyteller is going to want.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#46781: Nov 22nd 2015 at 9:40:15 PM

[up]

That's baggage not every storyteller is going to want.

And what about those that do?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46782: Nov 22nd 2015 at 9:42:53 PM

I'm thinking Melissa Rosenberg, the showrunner of Jessica Jones, very much did want to address those themes:

One of the most unnerving elements with Kilgrave is when he directs women to "Smile." Given the state of modern feminism and the movement to allow women more body autonomy, how much of that framing is related to modern misogyny?

[Laughs.] Let's see, 100%? I was very conscious to really take all that on. This is a character who is not defined by her gender. She is first and foremost a character. I didn't define her any more as a woman as you would "white guy" if it was a white male lead. But those of us of the female persuasion, our lives are certainly informed by our gender and the misogyny around us. Her stories were definitely informed by it.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#46783: Nov 22nd 2015 at 9:59:10 PM

Based on that, she's actually showing both sides of it: both that as a female character with her past and situation the sexist and feminist themes are important and must be a part of the way her story is told, but at the same time she's a full character with a story that's not solely defined by those messages.

edited 22nd Nov '15 9:59:28 PM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#46784: Nov 23rd 2015 at 12:16:37 AM

When it comes to comparing Jessica Jones with Daredevil...I think both are fairly even. Jessica Jones does better with the characters, they feel more layered and unusual than what Daredevil has to offer, but Daredevil managed to built up its narrative better. The one in Jessica Jones is kind of messy. Jessica Jones is probably a little bit better, but it is not exactly a show I would watch multiple times. It's too disturbing.

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#46785: Nov 23rd 2015 at 12:19:47 AM

Stories with white male protagonists aren't expected to be specifically about the white male experience

That's kind of the point of making shows that don't star white male protagonists, because white male protagonists are seen as the default, any other kinds of viewpoints be damned.

edited 23rd Nov '15 12:21:04 AM by higherbrainpattern

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#46786: Nov 23rd 2015 at 12:45:31 AM

That's not what she's talking about: she's not referring to discrepancies in amount of content, but discrepancies in portrayal.

Basically, the way the industry is now white men are seen as "normal" for media, so they can just be characters: with a far wider range of character types and stories. In contrast, stories starring characters who are non-white or women are typically expected to be about the fact that they're non-white or women one way or the other, because the industry sees that sort of thing as abnormal and requiring a sort of justification.

Marvel Studios has so far been extremely good at writing stories starring female characters where sexism and the characters' gender is important, but at their core the character herself largely averts that pitfall.

edited 23rd Nov '15 12:50:15 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#46787: Nov 23rd 2015 at 12:49:19 AM

The only Marvel show which really makes a big deal of it is Agent Carter, and there it would feel odd if they didn't address it due to the time period the show is set in.

That is something I like about Agent of Shield. Every singe character is defined by his or her abilities, and not gender or race.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#46788: Nov 23rd 2015 at 12:54:57 AM

Actually, averting that with Peggy's character was one of the things Hayley Atwell was adamant about in Agent Carter, and it works.

Peggy's setting is one of blatant and constant sexism and oppression, but Peggy herself is not who she is because of that sexism as much as being a person who continues to be the way she is despite that sexism. She's a spy and a hero trying to rescue a friend, unearth a conspiracy and protect her country despite adversity at every turn - that's the crux of her story. Sexism is the adversity, not the character, and a lot of that distinction comes down to Atwell's excellent portrayal.

It's the same here: Jessica's story is heavy rape, abuse and recovering from trauma, but rather than be stuck with the cliche "broken abuse victim" characterization a more textbook story would have given her Jessica is very solidly written as a "noir detective with dark past" character - with those aspects as a part of how she's written rather than all of who she is.

It's admittedly a fine distinction, but it really shines when done right.

edited 23rd Nov '15 12:59:20 AM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#46789: Nov 23rd 2015 at 12:59:13 AM

Kyle Kallgren of Brows Held High had some cool things to say about "Jessica Jones". He's the guy who made the "Between the Lines - The Avengers" video shown here a while back.

edited 23rd Nov '15 12:59:58 AM by Tuckerscreator

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#46790: Nov 23rd 2015 at 1:03:12 AM

[up] Interesing. I'd like to see him do a video about the show.

Oh God! Natural light!
yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#46791: Nov 23rd 2015 at 6:22:05 AM

[up]x7

Something I missed a little in Jessica Jones were the awesome fight scenes. As it's been pointed out, Jessica is Unskilled, but Strong,so is Luke, who has a bit of fights too.

Crow: There's a plot?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#46792: Nov 23rd 2015 at 6:41:18 AM

[up] I suppose this has to do with a lot of factors. Namely, Jessica's more of a detective than a vigilante (which, incidentally, gives her an semi-official position that Daredevil lacks), her primary foe is a noncombatant, and most of the people he controls aren't trained fighters. It's also worth noting that despite her superpowers, Jessica's combat style is overall less flashy than Daredevil's.

Oh God! Natural light!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#46793: Nov 23rd 2015 at 7:51:03 AM

It's kind of a good thing, though. We need a little bit variety in the fighting styles. And it makes sense for her. She has her strength, so she overly relies on it. It even becomes a plot point later on.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46794: Nov 23rd 2015 at 8:20:58 AM

Another issue is that the narrative was a bit too small scale. It works well enough but 13 episodes of Kilgrave torturing Jessica isn't as engaging as Matt stopping a massive conspiracy.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#46795: Nov 23rd 2015 at 8:41:17 AM

Speak for thineself, I found the psychological warfare to be far more engaging, it makes everything more personal and human. Not everything should be some huge event to be engaging.

People directly involved with Jessica getting used, terrorized, and killed had me at the edge of my seat all the time.

The Blog The Art
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46796: Nov 23rd 2015 at 8:43:52 AM

I liked Jessica Jones' plot as much as Daredevil's, and I never really felt like it was full of Padding either.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#46797: Nov 23rd 2015 at 8:45:53 AM

Nobody said padding. They said lower stakes.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#46798: Nov 23rd 2015 at 8:47:43 AM

Personal stakes can be just as high if the writing is good enough.

The Blog The Art
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#46799: Nov 23rd 2015 at 8:51:00 AM

I don't have a problem with Jessica Jones scale by itself. But you've got to admit, with only two female-led MCU properties out right now, the decision to go It's Personal with Jessica when her male counterparts are taking down massive conspiracies and godlike figures is kinda odd.

Agents of SHIELD has had issues with this as well—Skye's big conspiracy-unraveling was intimately tied to her parents, which made things personal; May's biggest plot arc has mainly been fighting her own demons; Simmons' planet ripped away two different love interests and traumatized her. Hell, the ostensible villain in the show right now is just trying to do right by her dead brother.

I'm not saying dudes never get grudge matches—Tony Stark has them neigh-exclusively, Hulk and Thor's debut movies both give them one. But, like, Captain America, the Guardians of the Galaxy*, Ant-Man really only got one by proxy...there's a degree to which Marvel seems kinda reluctant to let women strike out against a threat because it's a threat, rather than out of some personal stake. Agent Carter's really the only example of that at the moment.

*Okay, yeah, fine, Drax had an it's personal thing going on, but so did Gamora, so I feel like gender-wise it balances out.

edited 23rd Nov '15 8:52:39 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46800: Nov 23rd 2015 at 8:51:21 AM

I'm not saying it's bad or that I disliked it. I just think Daredevil had an easier time keeping things fresh by mixing in different antagonistic forces. Kilgrave was the sole threat until Simpson went off the deep end and that didn't happen until pretty late in the game.


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