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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#46726: Nov 21st 2015 at 4:15:52 PM

Also, cats.

Those smug bastards....

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#46727: Nov 21st 2015 at 4:25:09 PM

Though the Unfortunate Implications hopefully wont get too many people heated.
Yeah. "Unfortunate." Sure.

Actually, we can probably scratch off "implication" as well.

edited 21st Nov '15 4:45:11 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#46728: Nov 21st 2015 at 4:53:06 PM

[up]Well, the series did also carry a message against unfairly unloading one's resentment onto a particular group.

edited 21st Nov '15 4:58:22 PM by nervmeister

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#46729: Nov 21st 2015 at 4:57:46 PM

Another thing I noticed over the season is that, while Kilgrave is by far the most abusive and iconic villain of the series, the majority of the outright antagonistic people in Jessica's life are women with control and resentment issues.

Overall, I doubt the show is specifically making a point about one gender over another having power issues, at least not primarily above all the other things its trying to do, and is giving more of a universal message about selfishness, entitlement and living with other people rather than in spite of them (or, if you can't do that, letting them live without bothering).

The obvious gender and sexism message is a part of that, but whether that's the forefront depends on the episode and situation. In particular, it's very strong in the episode where Kilgrave "invites" Jessica to live with him, especially the part where he believes that because he bought her things and gave her an expensive lifestyle that means he was justified in raping her, which echoes a very real life rape culture outlook.

In fact, now that I think about it Jessica's rant to the fashion designer who wants to kill her over the events of The Avengers about not making other people's lives miserable just to satisfy your issues sums up a great deal about what the series gets across with its various relationships. Every antagonistic person (including, eventually, Will) in the series is someone who, instead of dealing with their problems, unloads their baggage onto other people bringing them harm and abuse.

edited 21st Nov '15 5:10:53 PM by KnownUnknown

yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#46730: Nov 21st 2015 at 5:55:37 PM

I've finished Jessica Jones now.

It's great. It's really, really great. Honestly, maybe even trumped Daredevil. A little bit.

I am very happy with Killgrave dying. So satisfying.

Crow: There's a plot?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#46731: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:30:50 PM

Watched episode 8.

Jessica and Kilgrave superheroing together was so hilariously awkward.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#46732: Nov 21st 2015 at 8:24:00 PM

So awkward, and so creepy.

Especially their conversation afterward, where he's basically saying that if he's going to try adventuring around, he needs her around to make him morally grounded get him to give a damn about regular people. Given who's playing him, it's fairly hard to avoid making the connection that he's saying he needs her as a companion.

Having Tennant as the actor just makes everything about this show way more disturbing, and it would be disturbing enough without him. It's like, I don't know, watching The Doctor as if he were possessed by The Master. There are moments where he sounds (aside from the actual content of what he's saying) exactly like Ten, not just in terms of the accent but even down to the tone and phrasing.

All the actors are fantastic, and the story is emotionally wrenching. It's definitely better than Daredevil.

edited 21st Nov '15 8:25:31 PM by Galadriel

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#46733: Nov 21st 2015 at 8:54:39 PM

Just saw episode 6. That marriage and baby ain't happening any time soon.

The Blog The Art
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#46734: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:44:32 PM

I'm up to episode 11 now. Will watch the final two tomorrow.

As far as it is compared to Daredevil, I really like both but thus far I think I'll still have to give Daredevil the edge by a bit. The fights were better choreographed and I feel like the humor was better. But Jess still has two more episodes.

edited 21st Nov '15 9:45:52 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46735: Nov 21st 2015 at 10:44:49 PM

The fights were better because Daredevil is a martial artist — he's basically a ninja with super senses. Jessica Jones, on the other hand, is Strong, but Unskilled — she hasn't needed to learn how to fight because she's super strong. She can just push people and they go flying.

I do like how all the white male main characters turn out to be villains: Wil Simpson is a kind of contrast to Kilgrave, he starts out as someone who seems sweet and his only flaw being that he was mind-controlled, but as time goes on, it shows that he's actually pretty violent and overly protective of Trish, even to the point of murder. While Kilgrave is doesn't care about anybody except himself, Simpson clearly cares, but he still thinks that he knows best and wants to make the choices for both Trish and Jessica.

Also, I knew Simpson came from the comics, but it was still pretty chilling to hear him say "Give me a red." I so want to see the MCU equivalent of Daredevil: Born Again now.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#46736: Nov 21st 2015 at 11:08:45 PM

I do like how all the white male main characters turn out to be villains

Uhhhh, hooray?

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#46737: Nov 21st 2015 at 11:25:46 PM

I'd go on some rant about how not everyone can be discriminated against equally and how it's good to be taking pot-shots at the de-facto establishment, especially for fantasy-equivalents of shit they do all the dang time, but no one would listen so whatever.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46738: Nov 21st 2015 at 11:26:52 PM

I'm a white male, but seeing how there is a complete overabundance of White Male Heroes (especially in the MCU), the fact that Jessica Jones disregards all of that and all of Simpson's overprotective macho bullshit was quite heartening.

I mean, Simpson's and Kilgrave's storylines are actually pretty close to Ward's storyline on AOS - all three "love" a woman and want to control/protect her. All three are white men who find excuses for their every bad action ("I was manipulated by Garret" "It was the drugs" "I didn't kill anyone").

edited 21st Nov '15 11:31:11 PM by alliterator

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#46739: Nov 21st 2015 at 11:40:50 PM

[up][up][up]

He means it's a nice change of pace from the usual "hero team is either led by or includes a token white male in it". Or to look at it from a different prospective, it's nice to have a show where all of the heroes get to do their bit as an example for a group who normally is underrepresented in the media for such roles.

Nothing wrong with that. It's not like the show is making a broad statement that white males are Always Chaotic Evil. Which if it actually did, for any rabid social justice types who might be lurking, is tempting but NOT constructive or the kind of message we should strive to push when talking about making media more inclusive, speaking as a member of several disenfranchised groups.

Meanwhile in the face of anyone who seriously tries to argue from the other direction that the show is trying to push an anti-white male agenda (and boy do they exist), you've got pretty much every other Marvel series as a counterexample to argue against it.

edited 22nd Nov '15 12:14:18 AM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#46740: Nov 22nd 2015 at 12:09:08 AM

Can't we simply say that the show is about trauma and the fact that while you can deal with it, it will always be a part of you?

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#46741: Nov 22nd 2015 at 12:10:12 AM

Y'all realize there's a specific thread for discussing JJ in detail, right?

Yeah, it's part of the MCU, but the details are better discussed in the Jessica Jones thread as this one is for the universe in general.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46742: Nov 22nd 2015 at 12:19:18 AM

Can't we simply say that the show is about trauma and the fact that while you can deal with it, it will always be a part of you?
Well, we can say that, but it's also about multiple things. I mean, the show is primarily about trauma, but there are a bunch of other themes, too.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#46743: Nov 22nd 2015 at 12:22:23 AM

I took Simpson's increasingly insane obsession with protecting Trish and being the one to kill Kilgrave as an effect of him being unable to reconcile his desire to protect others with the guilt and trauma of what he did under Kilgrave's control, rather than him just being macho.

Which makes him a great foil to both Jessica and Luke, who both have similar issues after what they've suffered through but are both able to deal with them without falling to darker natures.

Actually, now that I think about it, what he went through is almost exactly what Jessica went through with Luke's wife. They reacted in similar ways - both become fixated on taking it upon themselves to personally protect those around them (at times despite their wishes otherwise) and fell into actions that were more self-destructive than helpful, but Simpson didn't show how badly he was broken until it was far too late to stop him from going too far, and because of the situation no one thought twice about him ultimately becoming more focused on killing Kilgrave than actually doing good.

His story reminds me a lot of Blonsky, as well as the "good becomes better, bad becomes worse" aspect introduced in Captain America. Rather than reacting to Kilgrave by diving into doing right by his victims, Simpson's take was to eliminate the problem. And so, instead of his desire to protect others becoming something noble like Cap's or Jessica's, it became violent repression and destruction despite his initial good intentions.

edited 22nd Nov '15 12:36:25 AM by KnownUnknown

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#46744: Nov 22nd 2015 at 12:33:41 AM

The other major difference is that Simpson is as dumb as a sack of turnips.

His first name should have been Homer, not Will.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#46745: Nov 22nd 2015 at 7:49:19 AM

Interestingly enough, the pills Simpson shoves into his face are red, white, and blue. Clever.

edited 22nd Nov '15 7:59:21 AM by nervmeister

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46746: Nov 22nd 2015 at 8:03:05 AM

[up] That's directly from the comics and his first appearance in Daredevil: Born Again. His first words in the comic, I believe, are "Give me a red."

edited 22nd Nov '15 8:03:23 AM by alliterator

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#46747: Nov 22nd 2015 at 8:07:09 AM

[up]Oh. So both a direct nod and a more subtle Mythology Gag (that is if he never ends up having a flag painted on his face).

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#46748: Nov 22nd 2015 at 8:27:06 AM

Oh, he is a comic character? How is he portrayed there?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46749: Nov 22nd 2015 at 8:33:04 AM

He's actually portrayed better here than he is in the comics. The comics don't really explore his backstory much. If you really haven't read Daredevil: Born Again, I'll put this in spoilers:

Frank Simpson (or "Nuke") is first introduced as a Rambo-esque figure with a flag tattooed on his face, gunning down people in Nicaragua. He works for some secret group within the US military who supply him with "reds, whites, and blues," pills that turn him into a super solder. Wilson Fisk ends up paying off a general to get access to Nuke and gives Nuke a speech about the American Dream, all so that Nuke will shoot up Hell's Kitchen, drawing Daredevil out so he can kill him. Daredevil does fight and defeat Nuke, but he also saves Nuke and brings him to Phil Urich to get a statement that puts Fisk behind bars. Nuke ends up "dying," in that he appears dead but the secret military group (later revealed to be Weapon X) steals his body and brings him back.

Oh, and Captain America makes an appearance, where he also investigates Nuke and talks to the general and gives one of his best lines ever: "I'm loyal to nothing, General, except the dream."

Actually, probably my favorite part in that storyline comes near the end: Nuke is attacking Hell's Kitchen and yells out "GIVE ME A RED!" Cut to Daredevil in his red costume (which he just put on again) emerging out of a fire. This was the last page of the issue and the next issue was advertised right below him, "NEXT: ARMAGEDDON!"

Of course, this all back when Frank Miller could write really, really well.

edited 22nd Nov '15 8:39:45 AM by alliterator

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#46750: Nov 22nd 2015 at 8:41:06 AM

Nohbody: As long as they spoiler tag it, there's nothing wrong with discussing JJ details here. This is a thread for the universe in general, so of course there's a lot of JJ discussion. It's not only the newest release, but it just came out so most people are watching it.


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