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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#46001: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:46:10 PM

I'm not really getting the love for Batroc right now. He's barely a presence. He's like the Ten Rings in the first 20 minutes of Iron Man. He gives the hero something to do before the plot kicks in. The revelation later that he was hired by Fury is completely outside his effectiveness as a character because it comes after the audience has probably already forgotten about him. And people want more of this in the MCU?

He was a really outstanding piece of choreography, not a character.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46002: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:48:34 PM

Ah, I see. Although it doesn't seem impossible that they don't know what to do with Iron fist since they've said it before
They haven't said it before - there have been rumors, but that's it. The rumors have no basis, no backup. Someone just said, "We haven't heard anything about Iron Fist, perhaps they are having trouble with it" and it spiraled from there.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#46003: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:50:13 PM

[up][up] Sure, why not? He made an impression on a lot of people, and never would have worked as a villain on his own, so why not do something similar with other minor villains? It worked, didn't it?

edited 3rd Nov '15 6:50:37 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#46004: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:54:27 PM

I liked the Worthy Opponent scene between Batroc and Cap. Not only a good way of keeping in some of Batroc's Noble Demon tendencies from the comics, but that's one of a couple of things Cap does in the film that lend support to AOU's interpretation that there's some Blood Knight aspects to his character.

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#46005: Nov 3rd 2015 at 7:37:49 PM

I'm not trying to say Batroc was a big thing and the best character or anything. But for a relative non-entity, he was effectively used.

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#46006: Nov 3rd 2015 at 7:39:48 PM

Batroc was cool, but Rumlow and Bucky were cooler.

edited 3rd Nov '15 7:56:23 PM by higherbrainpattern

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#46007: Nov 3rd 2015 at 7:48:23 PM

@ Bad Wolf,

No one is saying every villain in the MCU should be like Batroc. That would be stupid. What people are saying is that Batroc was an excellent of a side villain. Yes, his appearance is short and he have no character. But he accomplished everything he was supposed to. His "plot" served its narrative purpose and Batroc himself was memorable and cool enough for people to take notice.

Not every villain need to be a great character. Not every villain can be a good character. Not in a movie. That is what cause the "too many villains" problem. It is not the actual number of villains, but the movie trying to flesh out every single one of them, even if they don't actually matter.

So, yeah, Batroc was more of a outstanding piece of choreography than a character. But he didn't need to be something else. He is exactly what he is supposed to be and the movie is better of for it.

edited 3rd Nov '15 7:49:27 PM by Heatth

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#46008: Nov 3rd 2015 at 7:53:06 PM

[up][up] Yeah. I like Rumlow too, and how his likable cocky asshole personality remains even after we find out he's evil. He's like he quintessential Lawful Evil soldier- he'll do anything he's ordered to (and will probably have a good time doing it). Definitely an improvement from the thuggish Politically Incorrect Villain of the comics.

[up] I think he works so well because there's some quite effective characterization of both Cap and himself in his scene and it's an effective way to get the plot rolling. And it works so well that it would work well to have him make another appearance.

edited 3rd Nov '15 7:54:35 PM by Hodor2

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#46009: Nov 3rd 2015 at 8:13:31 PM

But he's not even a side villain! He's just a fight scene.

The fixation on Batroc especially confuses me because Winter Soldier already has a great, straightforward, uncomplicated side villain that is an actual character: Rumlow. He has a personality, but doesn't take up any time with backstory. Why's he there? To have a traitorous SHIELD agent once the HYDRA reveal happens, and to give Sam someone to fight in the climax. Does he need to be more? Not really.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#46010: Nov 3rd 2015 at 9:18:27 PM

There is no fixation with Batroc. People just brought him up as a good example. People mentioned Rumlow as well. Winter Soldier was overall great on that department.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#46011: Nov 3rd 2015 at 9:40:36 PM

[up][up]

All people are saying is that he's a good execution of Bit-Part Bad Guys. He's mostly a footnote in the grand scheme of things but one done well enough to be very cool and memorable in people's minds.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#46012: Nov 3rd 2015 at 9:45:18 PM

And I'm arguing that he's not. He's little more than a mook with a name and a cool fight.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46013: Nov 3rd 2015 at 10:21:49 PM

That's the point. That's what people want to see from the first fight in the film.

edited 3rd Nov '15 10:22:06 PM by alliterator

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#46014: Nov 3rd 2015 at 10:22:56 PM

And for a bit part (like, a really small part), he makes enough of an impression.

That's all. I don't think anyone is really fixated on him or arguing that he's more than he is.

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#46015: Nov 3rd 2015 at 10:40:36 PM

And for some reason you've been acting like you are personally offended by some people on an Internet forum liking Batroc. Take a chill pill.

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#46017: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:24:22 PM

And I'm arguing that he's not. He's little more than a mook with a name and a cool fight.
I mean, replace "cool fight" with "cool outfight" and you're talking about Boba Fett, whose role in the original trilogy was even less important than Batroc.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#46018: Nov 4th 2015 at 12:19:28 AM

Look, Batroc was just a cool fight, yes. But that's the point - they felt the scene needed a good fight scene, so decided that Batroc would be a good choice for it (it's not like they really would have used him for anything else), and put him in. It's not that he's an interesting character, it's that it's a good use of a character that never really would have been used otherwise, and we'd like to see similar characters used this way. Is this really a problem?

edited 4th Nov '15 12:20:05 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46019: Nov 4th 2015 at 4:59:42 AM

This discussion got me thinking. The Spider-Man film should open with a montage of him taking out a bunch of C-list antagonists.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#46020: Nov 4th 2015 at 7:02:06 AM

Yeah. I like Rumlow too, and how his likable cocky asshole personality remains even after we find out he's evil. He's like he quintessential Lawful Evil soldier- he'll do anything he's ordered to (and will probably have a good time doing it). Definitely an improvement from the thuggish Politically Incorrect Villain of the comics.

And he has a face! Crossbones in the comics is basically just a sentient skull-mask that grew a body at some pointWATCH OUT . It's easier to buy a character being a person if he has a face - that's exactly why Mooks are so often put in masks and face-covering helmets, so the hero can kill them by the score and it won't feel like actual people are dying.

The fixation on Batroc especially confuses me because Winter Soldier already has a great, straightforward, uncomplicated side villain that is an actual character: Rumlow. He has a personality, but doesn't take up any time with backstory. Why's he there? To have a traitorous SHIELD agent once the HYDRA reveal happens, and to give Sam someone to fight in the climax. Does he need to be more? Not really.

Rumlow's not a side villain, he's a minion. Rumlow, the Winter Soldier, and Zola are all under the umbrella of Pierce's Hydra. Batroc's special because he's not part of Pierce's Hydra, he's just a Punch-Clock Villain who showed up for a few minutes to serve a different aspect of the plot.

Rumlow, the Winter Soldier, and Zola are all great examples of how having multiple villains works if they're serving a single narrative thread. Batroc, meanwhile, is an example of a villain who doesn't serve that thread by his goals or character, but still moves the plot in the direction it needs to move in and doesn't outstay his welcome.

Not every villain needs to have an evil "Take over the world" plot. The comics have a ton of Punch Clock Villains, glorified super-mercenaries ready to take on a job and punch a superhero in the face for the right buyer. Some are incredibly memorable and fan-beloved characters, like Taskmaster, who probably won't ever work as a main antagonist because they don't have the ambition to be genocidal warlords or whatnot. Batroc is one of those and the film did a great job giving him just enough to justify his presence without overdoing it.

edited 4th Nov '15 7:03:50 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#46022: Nov 4th 2015 at 8:23:28 AM

They are actually shooting in Nepal? That's great...especially since the region really can use the money....

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#46023: Nov 4th 2015 at 8:45:43 AM

[up] Er, what do you mean by that?

Also, this may be a stupid question, but I guess the guy with the beard and scarf to the left is our leading man?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#46024: Nov 4th 2015 at 8:50:20 AM

[up]There was a giant earthquake this year in Nepal...not only did it kill a lot of people, it also destroyed a lot of important sites. And naturally messed up tourism for the year. Nepal can still use all the help it can get.

HextarVigar That guy from The Big House Since: Feb, 2015
That guy
#46025: Nov 4th 2015 at 9:31:40 AM

The only reason Black Widow is even in these movies is because every team-based movie has to have a chick in a saucy outfit.

Captain America is technically a mutant, and is as strong as it's physically possible for a human to be.

Tony Stark has access to (and has created) some of the most powerful technology in the world And has a cybernetic suit of armor with which he can kick major ass.

Thor is a god.

And the Hulk is the Hulk.

Hell, even Hawkeye scores higher than she does.

The Scarlet Witch, now she worked. She had powers. She posed a risk to more than one opponent at a time. Black Widow was just there so the team wasn't a sausage party.

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.

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