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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#45976: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:19:13 AM

Yeah, Rhino was basically what a lot of people want from the Marvel movies. A villain who doesn't have a huge backstory and doesn't contribute to the plot in ways that his character lacks the weight to believably do.

My various fanfics.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#45977: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:22:35 AM

Just to reiterate, I don't want ALL the movie villains to be like that. Just the superpowered Mooks.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45978: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:27:17 AM

Why on earth do people want that? At that point, the hero may as well be fighting an actual rhino.

Also, the most generic mook-villain in Spider-Man's rogues gallery is Shocker.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45979: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:34:32 AM

I'd disagree with that. Shocker (along the lines of Sandman and Rhino in Spectacular Spider-Man is generic in the sense that he commits mundane crimes and doesn't kill anyone, and so he's someone you can have Spidey web up repeatedly and handwave his not being in prison.

On the other hand, Shocker is a bit of an Evil Counterpart to Peter- he's similalry a genius inventor that lacks the drive to make something of his talents- with the obvious difference that Peter fails mostly because of Samaritan Syndrome whereas Shocker fails because he finds it easier to be a criminal.

But you could very easily have a story with Shocker as the viewpoint character/protagonist- he'd be ideal for the proposed Sinister Six movie idea. I wouldn't say the same of Rhino.

edited 3rd Nov '15 11:36:00 AM by Hodor2

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#45980: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:39:26 AM

[up][up]Because they want the fantastical elements of the MCU to be more fleshed out without having to spend two hours building up characters that will be dead when the credits start rolling anyway.

My various fanfics.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45981: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:39:54 AM

What's funny is that the movie Electro was basically Ultimate Shocker. A down on his luck scientist with self esteem issues because his bosses stole his ideas and treat him like shit.

[up][up]For the Sinister Six to work I think you need to have a villain who is somewhat sympathetic despite being a crook. Which is why I think positioning Harry as the leader was a stupid decision, since the movie version of Harry was basically a Complete Monster with zero redeeming features.

edited 3rd Nov '15 11:40:06 AM by comicwriter

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45982: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:40:29 AM

People want supervillains with no real connection to the plot because it both allows the hero to do superheroing without needing to have an entire plot centered around it, helps with the worldbuilding by establishing that there are new threats and villains popping up all the time beyond those related to the heroes' actions, and in general helps dispel the idea of the heroes acting within a vacuum.

More supervillain career criminals that don't have to be the biggest, most personal threat the heroes face, while also not needing to be the center of the plot, could definitely do the universe some good.

Even if they're not entirely unconnected, characters like Batroc are a good example of how to do a small time but largely independent villain that exists mostly so the hero can do some disconnected heroing. He turns out to be linked to the main plot, but neither the heroes, nor the audience nor even himself are aware of that at the time.

It works better on some heroes than others (it'd contrast what they've been doing with the Hulk, for example) but, say, Tony could have used it: both to help establish that Iron Man had taken the role of protector against threats regular people couldn't face (which gets a lot of lip service), and so that Tony could actually face a villain that didn't only exist because of him or his family for once. Especially since the bulk of his Rogues Gallery are practically designed to be in that character niche in the first place.

It's a concept that really works with Spider-Man because swooping onto the scene and cheerfully taking out random criminals and supervillains is basically his version of Batman's Mook Horror Show character establishment scenes - it's one of the iconic things he does.

edited 3rd Nov '15 12:05:15 PM by KnownUnknown

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#45983: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:41:52 AM

"I have successfully privatized World Peace."

"How?"

"....AC/DC! BURGER KING! IRON MAN OUT!"

My various fanfics.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45984: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:46:08 AM

I mean, they basically did include a supervillain without any backstory in Captain America: The Winter Soldier: Batroc the Leaper.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#45985: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:53:42 AM

They gave you just enough information so that you gave a shit about him. And he was also one of my favorite things in the movie.

My various fanfics.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45986: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:57:06 AM

Yeah. Like I said, Batroc is a good example of doing that with a character if you don't quite what want them unconnected from the plot - he's largely incidental but obliviously plays a vital role in things he has no scope of.

He's one of my favorite parts of the movie too.

edited 3rd Nov '15 11:57:23 AM by KnownUnknown

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#45987: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:01:52 PM

It also helps that villains like Batroc and Rhino don't have to die at the end of the film. Well, none of them have to die, but for the most part, if you're the main baddie, you die at the end. Loki's the only one to avoid this fate, but he had to fake his demise.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45988: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:02:28 PM

The analysis I'd read said it was less about having more shallow or generic villains but just showing that there are threats out there other than the ones directly connected to (or caused by) the heroes.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45989: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:05:15 PM

And they still tied him to the central narrative just enough. He was the cold open villain to establish Cap and Widow's abilities, but the battle against him and his men was also used to establish the conflict between Cap's worldview and the way S.H.I.E.L.D. operates, and it was later revealed to be part of Fury's play to uncover Hydra. Batroc had no relationship with the villain but his sequence had a ton of narrative worth to the film.

That's important because film is nothing like a serial format, like comics or television. Every minute of screentime counts because you don't get much of it. A complete story has to be done in 1.5-2.5 hours - the equivalent of two episodes of television.

All of the characters have to be introduced and established, the conflict has to be built up, fantastic elements have to be explained to such an extent that the audience has at least some understanding of what's happening on the screen, and then everything needs to be resolved satisfactorily - every character arc concluded, the villain defeated in a climactic finish, etc. All in less time than it takes to play Portal.

Time comes at a high premium in film. You might spend fifteen minutes establishing that the Shocker is robbing a bank, having Peter bow out of class or his date or whatever to go fight Shocker, and then showing Shocker be defeated. That's fifteen minutes the film will never get back. That's upwards of 10-20% of your film wasted on a character who has no bearing on the story being told.

This is what makes Batroc so effective: because even though Batroc himself had no relevance to the main plot, none of his screentime was wasted. He wasn't important to the overarching story, but everything that happened during the fight with him was.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#45990: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:09:07 PM

Villains probably don't need origins anymore. Just have Baron Zemo or whome ever turn up in the narrative fully formed and allow the plot itself explore the character of this villain through implication. Heck, it worked the Dark Night Saga; none of the villains have on screen origins.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45991: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:18:30 PM

None of the villains in The Dark Knight Trilogy had superpowers either. They were all just dudes who wanted to do asshole things.

Even then, with no need to explain where a character got their earth-shattering superpowers, the first film still featured an origin story for the Scarecrow as a C-plot, the second spent its entire run-time as an origin for Two-Face, and the third prominently explored the backstories of Bane and Talia during its second act.

And that's not getting into all the exposition on the League of Shadows. The only villains who showed up fully-formed to the party were the Joker and Catwoman, and the latter only half counts.

edited 3rd Nov '15 12:20:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45992: Nov 3rd 2015 at 1:36:01 PM

Heck, it worked the Dark Night Saga; none of the villains have on screen origins.
I'm pretty sure the entire second movie was Two Face's origin. And the entire third movie teased the origin of Bane, which turned out to be the origin of Talia.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#45993: Nov 3rd 2015 at 1:38:26 PM

God that Two-Face thing pissed me off so bad.

My various fanfics.
PCM Since: Oct, 2015
#45994: Nov 3rd 2015 at 4:56:02 PM

Has anybody brought up the recent rumor of Iron Fist being turned into a movie instead? Apparently they want to make it a netflix exclusive film and give Punisher a series, making him the fourth Defender instead of Iron Fist.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45995: Nov 3rd 2015 at 4:57:24 PM

Yes, it was brought up and discarded. There is literally no evidence at all - it's a rumor without substance.

PCM Since: Oct, 2015
#45996: Nov 3rd 2015 at 5:30:05 PM

Ah, I see. Although it doesn't seem impossible that they don't know what to do with Iron fist since they've said it before

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45997: Nov 3rd 2015 at 5:44:01 PM

[up][up][up][up]It felt organic to the overarching plot, so it wasn't too grating. Unlike Electro's ridiculously unlikely "meanwhile at Oscorp" origin.

edited 3rd Nov '15 5:49:41 PM by nervmeister

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45999: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:07:22 PM

What was his purpose again? Something with Nick fury again.[up]http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Georges_Batroc his material warrants an appearance on agents of shield.

edited 3rd Nov '15 6:13:02 PM by xbimpy

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#46000: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:11:17 PM

Fury used him to attack the ship holding the information on Project Insight that was being hidden from him, so that he could have Black Widow steal it back.


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