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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45951: Nov 2nd 2015 at 3:35:59 PM

[up][up] True. People tend to blame the later Spider-Man films' problems simply on having too many villains, but that's not the problem at all - it's that the films try to have their cake and eat it with every villain in the plot, trying to build each of them up as having the major textbook arc with the hero and have the plot come to a pivotal climax for each of them, even when they characters are largely independent of one another.

So it ends up being a mess, when it really shouldn't have to be.

edited 2nd Nov '15 3:36:43 PM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#45952: Nov 2nd 2015 at 5:16:55 PM

Winter Soldier also knew which villains deserved to be minor. Before the film came out, few were demanding that Batroc have more screentime or be the Big Bad of a film. The general reaction to the announcement was: "Batroc? Really?"

edited 2nd Nov '15 5:17:17 PM by Tuckerscreator

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45953: Nov 2nd 2015 at 5:39:26 PM

Integrating the villains with each other, rather than having multiple disparate plots for them, is something that the MCU has been pretty good about since the beginning.

  • Iron Man — The Ten Rings were in bed with Stane
  • The Incredible Hulk — Blonsky answered to General Ross (who wasn't a straight-up villain, but is an antagonistic figure)
  • Iron Man 2 — Justin Hammer tries to use Vanko for his own purposes (and Vanko succeeds in doing the reverse)
  • Thor — Loki is working with the Frost Giants
  • Captain America: The First Avenger — Arnim Zola is Red Skull's lackey
  • The Avengers — Loki gets command of the Chitauri because he's working for Thanos
  • Iron Man 3 — All the villains are part of Killian's Extremis plot
  • Thor: The Dark World — Kurse is Malekith's lieutenant; Loki's involvement in the plot is mostly as an ally, since his betrayal isn't relevant to this movie
  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier — Fricking everyone is HYDRA, most notably Lumlow; Winter Soldier is their attack dog; Pierce is at their head; Batroc is the first villain so far who isn't directly connected to the main antagonist, but he's ultimately revealed to be a feint by Fury
  • Guardians of the Galaxy — Ronan is partnered with Thanos, Korath works for Ronan, and Nebula works for Thanos
  • Avengers: Age of Ultron — Is actually the worst at this so far. Strucker is a Starter Villain unconnected to the main plot, and Klaue is an Early-Bird Cameo. Ultron has the Maximoff twins working for him for a while, but he's otherwise pretty autonomous
  • Ant-Man — Cross is pretty much the only villain; he tries to sell the Yellowjacket to HYDRA, but they're not directly a threat to Scott, Hope, and Hank.

edited 2nd Nov '15 5:40:32 PM by BadWolf21

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45954: Nov 2nd 2015 at 5:51:26 PM

I wouldn't necessarily consider the movies in which the villains have prominent minions (like Iron Man 3) as necessarily having multiple villains - since ultimately those characters are just extensions of the main villain's will and don't have much active part of their own.

For example, I'd consider Ronan, Thanos and maybe Nebula as being the main villains of Guardians of the Galaxy, but I wouldn't include Korath in that list.

Also, looking at it all laid out like that the MCU really does like having one villain be the patsy of the true Big Bad, doesn't it?

edited 2nd Nov '15 5:56:18 PM by KnownUnknown

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#45955: Nov 2nd 2015 at 5:59:12 PM

Yeah, Parallax is a good example of what NOT to do with Dormammu.

Red Skull works fine as a first-movie villain since he's just a deformed Nazi who doesn't need development, and his powerset is the same as the hero's. So does Loki because while he has backstory and a unique powerset, his development and plot is directly tied to Thor's "origin story" so the two plots aren't competing for space. Cross is basically Red Skull 2.0, minus the deformed Nazi part.

Dormammu, meanwhile, needs build-up. Lots and lots of buildup. He's one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe with direct ties to several lesser villains like Mordo, and while he's not exactly the deepest in terms of characterization he's not some flat dictator either. He simply cannot share a film with both Strange's origin story AND whatever plot Mordo is running, at least not without surviving for the sequel.

If I were in charge I'd let Mordo (Or whoever they make the human villain) be the Big Bad of the film, and explain that he's invoking the forbidden power of Dormammu, but leave Dormy himself as the Greater-Scope Villain. Maybe have a "Fine, I'll do it myself!"-esque stinger setting up his personal involvement for the sequel.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45956: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:00:53 PM

They should probably treat Dormammu in a manner akin to how they're treating Thanos.

Though whether the series should end with Dormammu (and thus have two movies leading up to him) or end with someone even bigger than Dormammu (and thus have the first movie lead-in to Dormammu, and the second movie have a fight with Dormammu only to twist us with even greater demonic/extradimensional foreshadowing) could really go either way.

edited 2nd Nov '15 6:06:57 PM by KnownUnknown

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45957: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:12:39 PM

Oh, Iron Man 3 is definitely a movie with only one villain track going on. Which is why no one else is named there. Everyone is working for the Mandarin, and the movie never tries to convince you otherwise. Compare to Iron Man, where the Ten Rings were always involved with Stane, but they're presented as a separate threat until you find that out.

I tended to split it just based on who is a supervillain in the source material. Which is why Kurse is mentioned even though he's never presented as a separate entity from Malekith with his own plot, and why Korath makes the list despite mainly existing to give Drax someone to fight in the climax.

edited 2nd Nov '15 6:14:03 PM by BadWolf21

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#45958: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:17:22 PM

[up][up]If Dormammu were saved for the grand finale third film, who would be the villain of the second one?

Or would it just be an Interim Villain?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45959: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:18:39 PM

Umar comes to mind, since she would be a good step between enemies of Mordo's level and Dormammu himself, as well as being an more direct introduction to the Dark Dimension.

I'm still pulling for Dormammu being the midway point to an even stronger evil (we're all rooting for you, Shuma), but him being the Big Bad of the whole trilogy is still a good possibility.

edited 2nd Nov '15 6:21:36 PM by KnownUnknown

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45960: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:21:02 PM

The Fear Lords.

Mephisto would be a good third-movie villain if they do Dormammu in Doctor Strange 2. I think we can be reasonably sure that Marvel has the rights, since they basically did him in Ghost Rider (he had a slightly different name), which they got back.

edited 2nd Nov '15 6:22:43 PM by BadWolf21

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#45961: Nov 2nd 2015 at 7:28:15 PM

In the Ghost Rider film he was Mephisto yeah, they just used his full mythological name, Mephistopheles.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#45962: Nov 2nd 2015 at 7:33:00 PM

In winter soldier have many villians but they work as whole, they where "HYDRA" with the same goal from the star while most of the time the movies have many "name" villians as team with all that implies.

Also Iron man 2 is not a good example because Vanko is barely there and Justin Hammer is just petty antagonist and everybody know it, in Ultron the twins did most of the damage for Ultron while his time to shine was....awfull.

So as long the minor villian work under a same goal everything will be OK

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#45963: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:11:14 AM

It works the most easily with non-powered villains, since it's pretty simple to turn them into regular old henchmen or Bit-Part Bad Guys.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#45964: Nov 3rd 2015 at 5:26:24 AM

At this point in its life, I feel like the MCU ought to be allowed to bring in superpowered villains without needing to explain where they got their powers from. The Ultimate Spider-Man comics did that with Rhino and Electro, and it worked just fine. Superhumans exist in this setting, we get it. We don't need twenty minutes of screentime to justify why a guy can shoot lightning from his hands. We know it's because of some sciencey thing.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#45965: Nov 3rd 2015 at 5:40:21 AM

[up]I don't know, when they do that it tends to result in a lot of lame underdevelopped villains. I mean, have you noticed how villains in superhero cartoons with an actual origin have become rarer and rarer?

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#45967: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:24:28 AM

[up][up]Oh, I'm not saying the main antagonist should have zero character development. It's just that we don't need twenty minutes of backstory for a character who basically amounts to a Mook. *cough cough* ASM2 *cough*

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45968: Nov 3rd 2015 at 7:43:48 AM

It really depends on the villain, and this also gets back into the thing about narrative focus. Electro's origins wouldn't have been problematic if the movie had been about him. If the conflict was driven by the character we saw in the beginning and the events that unfolded to him in Oscorp. If this had been a movie about a lonely doormat pushed too far.

But it ALSO had to be a movie about the Green Goblin's origins, AND a movie about the Rhino's origins, AND a movie about what happened to Peter's dad, AND a rom-com about Peter and Gwen's on-again off-again wackiness. The problem wasn't Electro's origins, the problem was that we spent so much screentime on his origins only to shove him into the background for the rest of the film. Amazing Spider-Man 2 was not a movie, it was four movies thrown into a pile, wrestling for screentime.

edited 3rd Nov '15 7:44:58 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#45969: Nov 3rd 2015 at 7:51:48 AM

The sad thing is that at least three of those movies sound really interesting.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45970: Nov 3rd 2015 at 8:27:07 AM

And this is what happens when you're in a rush to make something happen (Sony Cinematic Universe) instead of trusting that fans are going to come out to see your team-up movie after four years of set-up (Marvel).

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45971: Nov 3rd 2015 at 9:06:39 AM

Someone summed up my feelings quite well by saying the Green Goblin was entirely unnecessary to the story and his character arc made no sense. Harry shows up as Peter's never before seen or mentioned best friend and then ends up trying to kill him like 8 seconds later.

edited 3rd Nov '15 9:06:54 AM by comicwriter

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45972: Nov 3rd 2015 at 10:10:37 AM

Electro and Green Goblin both related back to Spiderman, him being their driving motivation to villainy, but Rhino was simply tacked on for the third movie. he didnt have an origin because he was the same character all throughout. the only difference is at the end he was in a suit. there was no build up to anything since the third movie never released.

Rhino: i have guns and im a criminal who ends up in jail. i have a mech and im a criminal who ends up in jail. THE END!

not what i call an origin. hes just one of many mad men roaming the streets of new york to give spiderman a reason to kickass. this is the norm in comics. cant go two feet without Scorpion robbing a bank while Vulture torments people inside a business building across the street. the director wanted to capture that, but without doing any hard work to have everyone already be established within the sandbox.

and even at the end scene, rhino was put on screen to let Spiderman's idealism shine through. To show that even a normal person can stand up to the big bad wolf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02S6ucfp1sU. the director redictered his purpose back to the main character, so the focus was never put on him. He was just there thats all.

meanwhile the other two could have received less screen time or given more focus on their plot progressing purpose

edited 3rd Nov '15 10:40:34 AM by xbimpy

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45973: Nov 3rd 2015 at 10:21:31 AM

The thing is that the movie didn't need another one of those. It already had two.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45974: Nov 3rd 2015 at 10:43:59 AM

oh the Equalizer has an excellent soundtrack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GT9wxhMyt0

if they make a Punisher show i want something similar. its not too post apocalyptic sounding like the Purge or Dredd nor too loud on the emotional spectrum like Hanz Zimmer

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#45975: Nov 3rd 2015 at 11:15:37 AM

Rhino doesn't need an origin story at all. He's probably the most generic Mook in Spider-Man's entire rogues gallery. In fact, Rhino was probably the only villain in ASM 2 that was handled perfectly. He's just there to show that Spider-Man spends his free time fighting bad guys. That's it. No dead wife or sick daughter or whatever. Just a stock bad guy for Spidey to punch.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.

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