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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45876: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:34:42 AM

[up]Dammit, no! I'm tired of seeing other heroes' biggest villains cheat on them with Tony Stark.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45877: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:43:36 AM

Doom has been fighting Iron Man since the 80's so the ship has already sailed on that one. He and Black Panther are basically the only people other than Reed Richards Doom considers Worthy Opponents.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45878: Nov 2nd 2015 at 7:52:19 AM

[up]How about instead they make him a temporary enemy/rival for Dr. Strange until Marvel get the rights back for FF. This can be early in Doom's career when he's focusing more on magic before moving on (or back) to science.

For christ sakes, Doom has suffered enough at the hands of Story and now Trank. Subjecting him to the "Iron Man Villain Curse" on top of it all is a whole nother level of just-plain-sick.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:04:44 AM by nervmeister

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#45879: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:05:09 AM

[up]"The Iron Man Villain Curse" ?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45880: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:09:09 AM

I'd guess either the tendency to kill off villains for real and/or the fact that MCU!Tony is never outsmarted and his opponents are typically presented as smug snake jobbers.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:09:25 AM by Hodor2

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45881: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:11:34 AM

Aside from Iron Monger, every major antagonist in Iron Man's films are lackluster in some way.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#45882: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:12:40 AM

Honestly, the only reason Iron Monger worked for me is Jeff Bridges' sheer charisma, combined with the novelty of casting The Dude as a Corrupt Corporate Executive.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45883: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:13:44 AM

[up][up]

[up][up][up]

Precisely. Now, do you really want to risk it and have Doom get paired with Shellhead?

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:14:06 AM by nervmeister

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45884: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:34:22 AM

The problem with Doom is how do you create him? Doom works for a lot of heroes but the Fantastic four is the lynchpin of his origin and the foundation of his character is THE ACCURSED RICHAAAAAAAAAARDS!

By sticking to the parts of his origin that don't require the presence of RIIIIICHAAAAARDS.

He's the sovereign ruler of Latveria. He's a master of both science and sorcery. His mother sold her soul to Mephisto which motivated him to attend college and try to build a device that would allow him to enter Hell and rescue her. This device blew up in his face and scarred him.

Reed's involvement with Doom is that he crunched the numbers on Doom's dimensional transporter and tried to warn Doom the math was off, and Doom didn't listen. Then Doom blamed Reed when it didn't work, setting off their long vendetta. Reed is not necessary for the origin of Doom, just for the tiny sliver of origin that explains Doom's vendetta against Reed - a plot point that can't exist anyway if they can't use Reed.

Like Norman Osborn and Spider-Man, many adaptations have gone out of their way to try and tie Doom's origins to the Fantastic Four's so as to create a stronger antagonistic relationship between the two, but they're actually pretty unrelated except for that one brief moment where they intersected.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:38:10 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#45885: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:36:56 AM

Alternatively mention that the FF have been lost in the Negative Zone for the last few years.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#45886: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:43:22 AM

I am pretty sure that they will phase Iron Man out of the MCU soon. Not just because RDJ is very expensive, but also because he is now 50. When Phase 4 starts he will get closer and closer to 60. There just is a point at which the notion of him flying around in an iron suit will look ridiculous.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45887: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:45:21 AM

Something I was thinking the other day which was sort of behind my Tony post:

So, I think one problem (or at least I see it as such) with the MCU's approach that magic is science is that since Tony knows everything there is to know about science, there's nothing that he can't explain. Like the great scene of him vainly trying to explain Mjölnir scientifically is kind of undercut by the fact that he basically does explain Loki/Thanos' staff scientifically.

Tony is supposed to be an Agent Scully and not able to explain magic (Earths Mightiest Heroes did great with this and I can see it in the new Iron Man comic series regarding Doom). Tony in those situations reminds me of something along the lines of our great page quote for Flat-Earth Atheist:

"It was all very well going on about pure logic and how the universe was ruled by logic and the harmony of numbers, but the plain fact of the matter was that the Disc was manifestly traversing space on the back of a giant turtle and the gods had a habit of going round to atheists' houses and smashing their windows."

But when magic is science, you lose that and Tony is always the smartest guy in the room.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:49:20 AM by Hodor2

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45888: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:46:28 AM

Obligatory "grain of salt" alert but it's rumored Netflix may be swapping out Iron Fist for a Punisher series spun-off from Daredevil.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45889: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:46:51 AM

[up][up][up] The MCU has already proven more than once that they are not precious about their casting. RDJ may give up the role, but I do not see them leaving Iron Man behind anytime soon.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:47:46 AM by BadWolf21

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#45890: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:52:30 AM

[up]It is one thing to exchange a side character nobody cared about (and let's be honest here, I didn't even notice that they replaced some of those actors) or the lead of a movie which didn't really resonate with the audience, or replacing the actor which kicked off the whole MCU. Plus, there is really no need to keep Iron Man around no matter what. They have so many other heroes now. Replacing the Hulk made sense because he was kind of needed for the Avengers, but with Iron Man they can give him a proper good-bye.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45891: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:52:42 AM

The fundamental problem with the idea that "Magic should be inherently unexplainable" is that magic is explained all the time, it's just done so by sorcerers instead of by scientists. Anyone who can create a new spell has to understand how magic works at least to a certain extent. A wizard is just an engineer who specializes in fantastic physics rather than mundane ones.

To even be able to learn magic requires magic effects to be reproducible. If magic was truly uncertain, unexplainable, and unknowable, then there would be no Sorcerer Supreme because there would be no such thing as sorcery. It would just be a background force producing seemingly random effects at seemingly random intervals.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:54:42 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#45892: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:55:13 AM

Those were completely different situations from RDJ getting too old and expensive, and having already been in multiple movies. The other times were after one film and the actors were unreasonable.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45893: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:56:55 AM

So, what, they wouldn't drop a bus on them out of spite but will do it for characters that consistently make the studio millions every time they show up onscreen?

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:58:06 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45894: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:58:03 AM

Swanpride: As I've said before, that may work with some of their heroes, but I don't think Marvel will ever be willing to let go of the character that launched the biggest film franchise of all time.

The third biggest film franchise of all time has had the main character played by six different guys over the course of more than 50 years at this point. I don't think recasting Iron Man would be that big an issue.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:58:14 AM by BadWolf21

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45896: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:07:19 AM

@Tobias-

That's a fair point. But I think it's a problem to lose that aspect of Tony not being able to explain (let alone reproduce) any act of magic. Because as it is now, I wouldn't be all that surprised if he eventually hacked into Mjölnir.

I think it's one thing to show magical forces harnassed in a semi-scientific way and for example, I also like how the author Max Gladstone tackles the magic as science issue. Basically, it's more "science is magic" than "magic is science".

However, where I have a problem is when this goes a step further and it's presented in the sense that your hardest of hard science person on Earth could do magic at the drop of a hat.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45897: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:08:11 AM

I think you're overthinking it, dude.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45898: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:15:02 AM

Probably.

I guess a more simple way of putting it is that when Strange/Doom/etc do magic, I'm fine with Tony handwaving it as themjust manipulating manner on a quantum level (or some technobabble to that effect). Where I have a problem is Tony then being able to replicate that magic because he's just that good.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45899: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:21:40 AM

Because as it is now, I wouldn't be all that surprised if he eventually hacked into Mjölnir.

I think Hank Pym's far closer to doing that than Tony.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#45900: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:23:07 AM

Even Disney can't stop the time. RDJ will soon be too old for the role, and since his character ages with him, well. I can see him popping up as Tony Stark once in a while, but not as Iron Man.


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