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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45752: Oct 31st 2015 at 8:53:08 AM

2day old news. There's nothing breaking except yesterday's episode 1 review of jessica jones on ign

edited 31st Oct '15 8:54:39 AM by xbimpy

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45753: Oct 31st 2015 at 8:53:37 AM

That wasn't discussed here yet so it doesn't matter. Are you a mod now?

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#45754: Oct 31st 2015 at 8:53:45 AM

According to the Marvel wikia, at least 616 Carol left the USAF for NASA as a full colonel, bumped up to that rank on departure from the AF, so purely by mundane military rank she does outrank Steve.

But even if they don't carry over any of her 616 history or personality to the films, I'm pretty sure that she would at least listen to Steve, whatever their respective ranks. He definitely has her on time in service for superheroing. tongue

edited 31st Oct '15 8:54:34 AM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45755: Oct 31st 2015 at 8:54:22 AM

I'm going to vote no on that.

The problem isn't Spider-Man 3. That was just the most noticeable example of it. All three Spider-Man films are campy and over-the-top with slow, unengaging action choreography and characters who are basically one-dimensional caricatures of their comic book counterparts. It worked in 2001 because it was new life breathed into superhero filmmaking after Batman and Robin assassinated the genre but it hasn't aged well.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#45756: Oct 31st 2015 at 8:59:09 AM

I agree....the original Spider-man franchise is basically three times the same movie. The second try was the best, the third the worst, but they all have the same problems. And the main problem is the lack of character development. The MCU is ALL about the characters. I wouldn't trust Raimi with ANY of the properties in question and I especially don't want his hands in the spider-man franchise. This is a reboot, we need a fresh take.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45757: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:00:17 AM

Superhero fiction is inherently campy. Not all camp is bad. Remi's Spiderman was more ridiculous than required at times, trying to play homage to the classical style of the original source material but wasn't self aware enough to pull it off in our modern setting. It's hard to describe because Marc Web had introduced ago more wacky elements but in comparison his felt lived in because they were acknowledged by the denizens. There were a variety of emotional reactions and they all came back to our main characters.

The biggest problem was the continuity and world building. It just felt episodic, one random thing happening after the next with no prior notice or build up. And the pacing fell short as a result. Where's the connection between events? Characters tend to drive events, something that didn't really get done. Peter sat around until the next bad guy showed up. Agency. As the movies went on the conflicts became more and more external.

Another major issue is the old Peter didn't have much characterization and personality to evole or dramatize in a variety of ways.

However a lot of people loved Remi's Dr. Oc, JJJ, and Norman Osborn.

edited 31st Oct '15 9:21:48 AM by xbimpy

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45758: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:30:41 AM

Raimi. His name is Sam Raimi.

Also, please don't even try to compare alcoholism with rape, even in the context of what is allowed in Marvel movies. That post was incredibly tone deaf. So just...don't.

Marvel has allowed movies to show their characters drinking — I can tell because they had a whole party where characters drank explicit alcohol in Age of Ultron — so Disney isn't saying that their characters can't drink, it's just that they don't want children to see the characters as alcoholics. I'm proposing not that Carol be an alcoholic on-screen, but rather a recovering alcoholic, which is something much different. She can say that she's been to a meeting and children won't exactly know what that means, so everything would be fine.

edited 31st Oct '15 9:32:07 AM by alliterator

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#45759: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:42:29 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot they drank in that scene. But still, the characters having a couple drinks at a party isn't quite the same as that scene in Iron Man 2 where Tony gets wasted, pees in his Iron Man suit, etc. I really doubt we'll have a scene like that in the MCU movies ever again.

Having Carol as a recovering alcholic might be possible, but, eh, I'm not sure what Disney's policy on that is. They might just not want to have their characters be portrayed as alchoholics, period, especially the one female main protagonist in their movies so far.

edited 31st Oct '15 9:43:49 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45760: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:47:42 AM

Alcoholism is not the same as drinking here and there (earth 19999 Tony Sttark nowhere near reflects earth 616's addiction), buddy. It's a pretty heavy topic just like rape. Sometimes it leads to rape. To degrade one's significance over the other is insulting. The studio has been avoiding such topics for oblivious reasons I don't need to write paragraphs on.

You haven't seen a character who truly abuses achhol yet, going through the struggle like some of the people in our reality. You never will because once again the films are not allowed to enter that territory. There's a line and your asking it to be crossed. Shane Black wanted to expand upon Iron Man 2's drinking scenes by making them revolve around a subplot alike Demon In The Bottle. Marvel Sultudio immediately said no.

If you have desire to see achoal being used more proiminilty as a part of someone's arc then watch Jessica Jones. Not Ms Marvel or Iron Man.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:13:01 AM by xbimpy

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45761: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:48:55 AM

Yeah, not really interested in seeing Carol presented as a completely messed up alcoholic.

Although, while I think they are in different areas of the armed forces, if you wanted to do the recovering alcoholic angle, you could have her know Sam through the counseling work he does.

Edit- Since the MCU movies like to have characters go against their evil counterparts, I guess they'd probably also have Moonstone getting Kree powers. Going back to the counseling angle, maybe Moonstone would be Carol's psychiatrist?

edited 31st Oct '15 9:50:22 AM by Hodor2

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#45762: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:49:41 AM

[up][up][up]Especially since Jessica Jones seems to be hitting the bottle pretty hard, going by the Netflix trailers. Don't want to seem to be doing the same thing with all (i.e., both) Marvel's female protagonists.

edited 31st Oct '15 9:50:00 AM by Galadriel

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45763: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:50:36 AM

Alcoholism is not the same as drinking buddy. It's a pretty heavy topic just like rape.
Saying, "They wouldn't show rape in a movie, therefore they wouldn't show alcoholism!" is incredibly tone deaf and stupid. One is not the same as the other. Just...stop.

Yeah, not really interested in seeing Carol presented as a completely messed up alcoholic.
Hence the "recovering" part.

Especially since Jessica Jones seems to be hitting the bottle pretty hard, going by the Netflix trailers. Don't want to seem to be doing the same thing with all (i.e., both) Marvel's female protagonists.
Well, besides the fact that the show and the movies have completely separate audiences, they would still be pretty different, considering Jessica seems to drink to forget, while Carol is simply a recovering alcoholic period.

edited 31st Oct '15 9:52:29 AM by alliterator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45764: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:56:05 AM

Since the MCU movies like to have characters go against their evil counterparts, I guess they'd probably also have Moonstone getting Kree powers. Going back to the counseling angle, maybe Moonstone would be Carol's psychiatrist?

I'm torn on this because Moonstone is one of my favorite villains but I'm also kind of burnt out on the "The hero fights his/her Evil Counterpart" trope in the MCU.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#45765: Oct 31st 2015 at 9:57:25 AM

Wait, who compared Alcoholism with Rape?

Like, one's self destructive behavior, the other's a crime. They aren't easily compared.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#45766: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:01:35 AM

The thing is that Carol Danvers will only be the fourth female with powers in the whole MCU, and so far Quake is the only one who is psychological stable. She will also only be the third which will be a lead, and Peggy doesn't have any powers. I am not sure if it would be a good idea if the two powered leading ladies in the MCU are alcoholics. They are already exploring a messed up character in Jessica Jones, and Netflix is the perfect place to do it. I want Carol Danvers to be simply straightforward powerful and heroic, simply because that's the kind of female characters we see so rarely. They tend to be either tormented or not that powerful.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45767: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:02:56 AM

I think Peggy is reasonably psychologically stable but otherwise agree.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#45768: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:04:10 AM

[up]Peggy doesn't have powers. If the end result of powers for women is always severe psychological damage that sends some really uncomfortable messages.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:04:29 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45769: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:07:05 AM

Ah. misread that the subset of powered female characters is the one tied to mental instability.

Especially because it sounds like the MCU is going to follow the comic trend wherein when Scarlet Witch sneezes, the world gets a cold.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45770: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:07:21 AM

Wait, who compared Alcoholism with Rape? Like, one's self destructive behavior, the other's a crime. They aren't easily compared.
xbimpy's incredible terrible post here.

I want Carol Danvers to be simply straightforward powerful and heroic, simply because that's the kind of female characters we see so rarely. They tend to be either tormented or not that powerful.
I disagree. All the male heroes - aside from perhaps Captain America — have realistic flaws. To give no flaws to Captain Marvel and just present her as powerful and heroic no matter what would be disingenious at best.

[up]Sif has powers and is psychologically stable. Hope Pym will have powers and is psychologically stable.

Especially because it sounds like the MCU is going to follow the comic trend wherein when Scarlet Witch sneezes, the world gets a cold.
I don't see that at all. Wanda looked pretty stable at the end of AOU. And we don't know what will happen to her in Civil War.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:08:40 AM by alliterator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45771: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:08:32 AM

Assuming (which I do) that Hope doesn't turn evil and crazy and become the Red Queen...

I wouldn't count Sif though. She doesn't have powers compared to other Asgardians, just compared to humans.

[up] Was going off some of the actresses comments. As it is though, she still caused the Hulk to kill a ton of people and started out helping Ultron. Which granted, is pretty minor by comic standards.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:11:09 AM by Hodor2

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#45772: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:09:17 AM

[up][up]Yeah, I'd say that's a false equivalence. Which is a fallacious argument, in addition to being REALLY offensive to a number of people.

Like, I'm not an alcoholic and I've never been raped and I'm offended.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:10:28 AM by ultimatepheer

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45773: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:11:01 AM

Assuming (which I do) that Hope doesn't turn evil and crazy and become the Red Queen...
That's a big assumption to make. I mean, that's like saying Black Widow will go evil because her Ultimate counterpart did.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45774: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:11:39 AM

Wait... just to be sure the four we're counting are Jiaying, Scarlet Witch, Daisy Johnson, and then finally Carol?

Not oneshot characters like the little girl May had to kill in AOS or minions like Ellen Brandt?

As for psychological problems or flaws, I don't think that's a bad thing. Pretty much every hero in the MCU has psychological problems (except, arguably, Thor). The movies tend to waffle between showing them straight out or downplaying them for sake of the action, but it's still a decent part of Ultron.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:13:18 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45775: Oct 31st 2015 at 10:13:05 AM

Wait... just to be sure the four we're counting are Jiaying, Scarlet Witch, Daisy Johnson, and then finally Carol?
I'm not sure why we would count Jiaying. She is a villain, not a hero. I thought we were talking about female heroes with powers?

And if it's just "any female character with powers," you could add Raina to that list.

edited 31st Oct '15 10:13:46 AM by alliterator


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