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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#45601: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:22:25 PM

I imagine it's a matter of "should", not an absolute.

"You should create new characters rather than race lift existing ones, but I won't stop you from making Human Torch black, especially since it's a four-lead movie."

That or he's just getting forgetful in his old age.

edited 28th Oct '15 9:23:21 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45602: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:27:14 PM

Or, he's 92, and is well past the point of giving a fuck what anyone actually thinks of him, saying whatever he's feeling at any given moment. tongue

Also, it's not like Stan wasn't already walking the walk. Don't forget that he's the creator of the first black mainstream superhero (Black Panther).

edited 28th Oct '15 9:29:46 PM by BadWolf21

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#45603: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:30:03 PM

He may have been talking about deliberately race lifting for diversity reasons. The Human Torch was race lifted because they had a quality actor they wanted to play him,, who happened to be black, not because they decided they wanted to make him black so as to make the cast more diverse.

That or he's Stan Lee and he can say what he likes, because he's Stan Lee.

edited 28th Oct '15 9:30:28 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45604: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:31:04 PM

I won't deny that Michael B. Jordan is a quality actor (because I've seen other stuff he's in, and he definitely is). But being cast in Fantastic Four also had something to do with already having a working relationship with the director.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45605: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:32:57 PM

The point they were making was that he was cast for reasons other than just wanting some diversity so the entire team didn't end up white, which is the stance Stan Lee seemed to take.

In the same way the Word of God stance was that they didn't write Heimdall's role for a black man, they just cast Idris Elba because he's Idris Fucking Elba.

edited 28th Oct '15 9:33:29 PM by comicwriter

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45606: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:41:42 PM

Except even when people are cast for the sake of diversity, it can still turn out well.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45607: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:45:18 PM

You'll hear no arguments from me. I'm just saying aside from just being a crazy old man I don't necessarily think his two statements/stances were incompatible with one another.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45608: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:46:12 PM

[up][up][up] Just pointing out that, like with any other casting, being a good actor is not the only thing that got him the part.

In fact, being good is rarely what gets you a part. It's what doesn't not get you a part. Actually getting cast very often has exactly nothing to do with how good you are (because there are people just as good or better than you auditioning) and lots to do with whether you are ineffably "right" for it.

edited 28th Oct '15 9:46:39 PM by BadWolf21

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45609: Oct 28th 2015 at 9:47:52 PM

Why's that? We never actually saw her die, we were only told of it. It's entirely possible that there's more to it than meets the eye.

The theory I'd heard for a while is that Drax assumed she was dead but really she was turned over to Thanos so he could raise her. Which is slightly similar to her comic origin except it was Thanos' dad who took her in.

I feel this might be the case because Gunn made a comment about how Thanos has more kids we haven't seen yet, and some of them are worse than Nebula.

edited 28th Oct '15 9:49:46 PM by comicwriter

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#45610: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:08:01 PM

I've been reading Busiek's run on Avengers, and there's a running subplot where people rally outside Avengers Mansion because the current roster is all-white. In-universe, those people are painted as petty ingrates for complaining that the group saving the world monthly isn't up to their diversity standards. I know a lot of folks in this thread care about this topic, and it made me wonder: if you lived in the Marvel universe would Avengers diversity still be as important to you?

edited 28th Oct '15 10:08:31 PM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45611: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:10:38 PM

I don't actually think they were portrayed as petty ingrates - for one thing, Busiek knew that his all-white team was a problem, so he took steps to add more diversity, including introducing a new black superhero, Triathlon.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45612: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:15:05 PM

In-universe it probably wouldn't matter to me but I can see why it's treated as an issue. As Scott Lobdell put it, a team that calls itself "Earth's mightiest heroes" that has nothing but white people and a robot seems awkward.

[up]Yeah they were ultimately depicted as correct since when they did have a big racial debate about the makeup of the team, pretty much everyone but Iron Man suggested that the team needed more racial diversity. And even then Tony ended up backing down after a while.

edited 28th Oct '15 10:16:36 PM by comicwriter

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#45613: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:19:14 PM

[up][up][up]Unless it was all-white specifically because the Avengers were denying access to anyone not white from joining, then there should be no issue. Diversity in media, or lack thereof, draws people's ire because there's someone, such as a writer or director, deliberately choosing to include or exclude specific groups out-of-universe. Real life doesn't have out-of-universe reasons, so whatever happens happens.

edited 28th Oct '15 10:20:25 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45615: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:27:22 PM

According to Variety, Matthew McConaughey was offered the villain role in Guardians Vol. 2 and turned it down.

Begin speculation about who it is based on how that casting would've made sense!

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45616: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:28:51 PM

Unless it was all-white specifically because the Avengers were denying access to anyone not white from joining, then there should be no issue. Diversity in media, or lack thereof, draws people's ire because there's someone, such as a writer or director, deliberately choosing to include or exclude specific groups out-of-universe. Real life doesn't have out-of-universe reasons, so whatever happens happens.
So we're talking in-universe, right? Then the Avengers is a job. They are an employer. Their members get paid. So the same type of rules would apply: if you are only hiring white people, that's a problem, even if it's because there were no black applicants. Because, really, the Avengers are supposed to represent the planet and New York in particular - and if a police force was made up of only white people and it was in charge of a historically diverse city like NYC, well, that would be a problem because they wouldn't reflect the actual diversity of the city, just like an all white Avengers wouldn't reflect the actual diversity of NYC or Earth.

Real life doesn't have out-of-universe reasons, so whatever happens happens.
Real life may not have out-of-universe reasons, but it's still a problem. Having a group represent a city that doesn't actually represent a city is a recipe for disaster.

edited 28th Oct '15 10:30:08 PM by alliterator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45617: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:30:55 PM

That was a plot point since the Avengers Depending on the Writer either work for the government or cooperate with them in exchange for government clearance. That meant they had to apply to equal opportunity hiring practices like any other government institution.

[up][up]Shit, you [nja]'ed me. The most obvious choice? Adam Warlock. I could totally have seen him in that part.

Plus depending on how they played it he could have tied into Infinity War.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45618: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:31:37 PM

Um, no, being an Avenger is not a job. There's not really an employer, and as far as I'm aware there's no salary (or else why would superheroes have day jobs? ...And how would you cash the cheques?).

[up] Adam Warlock as the villain?

edited 28th Oct '15 10:31:54 PM by BadWolf21

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#45619: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:33:08 PM

[up][up][up]Then what do you do if there's no non-white applicants? Forcibly conscript people into the Avengers? tongue

edited 28th Oct '15 10:33:23 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45620: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:37:20 PM

Um, no, being an Avenger is not a job. There's not really an employer, and as far as I'm aware there's no salary (or else why would superheroes have day jobs? ...And how would you cash the cheques?).
Yes, they are and they do have a salary most of the time. Tony Stark is usually the one to pay their wages (see the last Avengers book where Tony goes, "We have money" and Spider-Man goes, "Oh thank god"). In fact, they regularly have recruitment drives to gain new members, much like other employers do.

As for how they would cash their checks: Tony Stark probably has some way to transfer funds that is both totally legal and completely anonymous. Probably. In any case, it's not really an issue.

In fact, for the new New Avengers book, Marvel released their salary information and it's pretty freakin' generous. Bobbi DaCosta is a good boss, apparently.

Then what do you do if there's no non-white applicants? Forcibly conscript people into the Avengers?
The Avengers used to hold recruiting drives in which they would gather a bunch of superheroes and see if any of them had what it took to be an Avenger. If there were no black superheroes in the mix...well, then they failed in adequately getting a diverse batch of superheroes, which is just silly. I mean, come on, Rage was an Avenger one time.

edited 28th Oct '15 10:40:42 PM by alliterator

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#45621: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:41:08 PM

It's not sounding too dissimilar from movies with Monochrome Casting where people go "but what if there were genuinely no non-white people good for the part" for each passing one. This is fiction. There's only no non-white applicants in such a 'verse if that's what the author writes. And if that's so, they could have written some instead of maintaining their own fictional status quo.

edited 28th Oct '15 10:41:41 PM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45622: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:42:50 PM

We're going with in-universe justifications, instead of out-of-universe ones, but that's also true.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#45623: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:44:29 PM

[up][up][up]Realistically, yeah, there's going to be non-white applicants. And probability dictates that at least some of them are going to meet all the criteria for being hired. So unless the Avengers are discriminating along racial lines, in which case the earth is doomed because some of them are godlike, the odds of their team remaining all-white is negligibly low.

But the hypothetical case I presented was the extremely unlikely event that there really were no non-white applicants, in which case I don't see what you can do short of conscription. tongue

edited 28th Oct '15 10:47:05 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45624: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:47:52 PM

Anyway, McConaughey! (Did not mean for that to rhyme...)

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45625: Oct 28th 2015 at 10:48:05 PM

But the hypothetical case I presented was the extremely unlikely event that there really were no non-white applicants, in which case I don't see what you can do short of conscription.
If there were no non-white applicants, then they would need to go out and find more applicants. Eventually, they will find some non-white ones.


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