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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#45226: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:35:30 AM

I think the Ten Rings and the real Mandarin are essentially a Sequel Hook. So while Marvel might not have any pics on the books to use them, that doesn't mean they won't ever sit down to plot out some phase 4 or 5 movie and decide to go forward with them anyways.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:37:01 AM by Falrinn

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45227: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:39:06 AM

[up][up][up]Now that I think about it, now would be a good time for Marvel to make a Nova film. Given how badly DC dropped the ball with Green Lantern, the MCU could upstage them yet again by showing them the "right" way to make a movie about an intergalactic police force.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:40:00 AM by nervmeister

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45228: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:41:08 AM

I think Marvel just knows that it would be almost impossible to present the character that's been hinted at in a way that would do the Mandarin justice. The Ten Rings terrorist group are a shackle around his wrists greatly limiting the character's ability to be engaging.

Because as much as people are all like, "The Ten Rings are awesome and the Mandarin is going to be more awesome and they're going to take over the world or something," the fact is that the Ten Rings are a glorified Al Qaida who were only ever menacing because of a bunch of guns and missiles that the Americans sold them. They're third-world terrorists living in caves.

It was a cute reference in the first Iron Man but it irrevocably ruined the character. Does anyone really want the Mandarin to come out and just be Discount Osama bin Laden? Does anyone honestly believe that would do the character more justice than Killian did?

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:41:52 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45229: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:41:31 AM

I already said that 3 pages ago and here as well -___-'.

Then why did you try to use them as examples for why Nova won't show up? Of course, he won't show up in those movies. He's a cosmic character.

Your second argument doesn't change my point, which is once again about unrealistic expectations.

Actually, it does. There are three movies that you have no idea about - and the Nova Corps have already been introduced in GOTG. Therefore, it is entirely possible that one of those movies could be about Nova. Say, after Infinity War, the Nova Corps decides it needs to step up it's game and protect the galaxy better, so they start to recruit from other worlds. Bam, movie.

Then there is a stand alone, which you yourself said would be too similar to Green Lantern, while I acknowledged without proper world building it would be a poor man's Green Lantern

All that means is it would need to differentiate itself. Not a hard thing to do.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:41:38 AM by alliterator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45230: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:43:07 AM

What Tobias said.

Also, for what it's worth, the MCU version of Ronan basically is Osama bin Laden with superpowers.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#45231: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:43:39 AM

I don't see the appeal of Rider, frankly.

Honestly, I think things like Green Lantern and Nova Corps as central concepts are mistakes. Pretty much the only good sci-fi thing I can think of where the main characters are on the right side of the law is Star Trek and the characters in those break the rules all the dang time. With the entire universe to play with it's super-hard to justify following around a buncha space cops.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#45232: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:53:45 AM

[up]Eh, I don't see anything inherently wrong with space cops. And it doesn't "waste" the universe. It, in fact, allows you to explore the universe in a way you can not with outlaws characters.

That said, I do agree the concepts are, ultimately, mistakes for the type of stories Marvel and DC tell. This kind of space policy needs to be both powerful enough to enforce the law and have a big enough jurisdiction to be relevant to the universe. But super hero comic universe are too open for that. You can't actually have powerful law enforcement else you will handcuff other creators. Which means said law enforcement need to be considerably less competent than they seem to be in their own stories, which causes too much dissonance. The concept works best when they are the focus of the whole universe. Not when they are sharing space with others, which is probably why it worked better in Star Trek.

Btw SHIELD suffers the same problem. Probably why MCU ultimately decided to cut their power considerably.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45234: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:00:48 AM

Oh, I can agree with that. In the comics, it was much more interesting when the Nova Corps was completely destroyed by the Annihilation Wave and Rider was the only survivor.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45235: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:03:58 AM

I wouldn't say it's a problem with space, so much as a problem with superhero stories.

It's possible to depict massive law organizations working as they should without undercutting the drama. Police procedurals do it all the time. The problem is that writing massive organizations is a very different experience from writing superheroes, the latter of whom are expected to behave in a sort of "Screw the Rules, I have Moral Conviction" sort of way.

Superhero writers bring that mindset to superhero police organizations and it results in the glorification of Cowboy Cop ideology and other pitfalls of writing cops as though they were vigilantes. They can't write huge organizations in an engaging way because it's not what they write. They write superheroes.

When you have the writers of Spider-Man or Iron Man writing a S.W.OR.D. miniseries for example, it's inevitable that S.W.O.R.D. is going to wind up written more like Spider-Man or Iron Man than NCIS in space.

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:06:02 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#45236: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:05:59 AM

It's possible to depict massive law organizations working as they should without undercutting the drama. Police procedurals do it all the time.
Hrm.

Maybe the problem is just that I personally don't like police procedurals.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45237: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:06:07 AM

@45228

Yeah. It'll be tricky making the genuine article feel fresh. Though maybe, Mandarin and the Ten Rings could be the polar opposite of HYDRA in philosophy. Instead of believing people cant be trusted with their own freedom, they think people should be violently shaken out the stupor society has put them in and forced to recognize their autonomy as individuals. As the saying goes, "Those who've lost everything are free to do anything." The irony however is that the Ten Rings themselves are an organized society who follow a faith and therefore tenets or rules which the Mandarin hypocritically admits to himself is necessary (for his followers, not him. He does what he wants because he's a "free individual").

So in short, he's kind of what you get when you cross Ra's Al Ghul with Andrew Ryan.

Or the "Zaheer" of the MCU

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:19:24 AM by nervmeister

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45238: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:07:21 AM

Of course you don't. If you did, you'd be watching CSI instead of the latest Marvel flick.

To summarize, attempting to write a story around a massive legal organization encounters severe hurdles from both the writing and audience sides because to do it correctly would be an Unexpected Genre Change. Superhero fans don't want cops. They want cowboy vigilantes. If they did, they wouldn't be reading superhero comics.

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:08:14 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#45239: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:08:03 AM

"NCIS in Space"

I'm sold.

My various fanfics.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#45240: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:08:39 AM

[up][up]I don't think those things are mutually exclusive? My dad likes the Marvel films but he also watches NCIS whenever it's in reruns.

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:08:51 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45241: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:09:00 AM

Actually, I think part of the problem is that we like rooting for the underdogs. If you are part of a huge, international police and surveillance organization, technically, you are not an underdog. That's why SHIELD had to be destroyed and outlawed before they became underdogs.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#45242: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:09:00 AM

I wouldn't say it's a problem with space, so much as a problem with superhero stories.

Yeah. When I was talking about "universe", I meant as in "Marvel (Cinematic) Universe". That is why I mentioned SHIELD. I realize it was a bit confusing, though, since the topic originated in a talk about space stories. My bad.

Anyway, your point is important too. Super hero (and other vigilantes/outlaws) stories kinda clash against the idea of having a competent law enforcement around.

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:10:31 AM by Heatth

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#45243: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:09:47 AM

This all just goes right back to Civil War. It is, in fact, the precise reason the Pro-Reg side was doomed to failure even if In-Universe they had a lot of the right ideas: a massive organization of superpowered police with no secret identities efficiently policing the world is not what people read comics for.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45244: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:11:05 AM

NCIS in Space would be really cool.

It also strikes me that the Nova Corps allow for a similar premise as Damage Control (who supposedly are getting a tv show)- for them, heroes are a bunch of elite assholes who make things harder for them.

And that underdog angle is something that works.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#45245: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:13:13 AM

RE: Agent Carter One-Shot vs the series, I think Butters and Fazekias' current statement is it's still considered the canonical Grand Finale of the Agent Carter series. Supposedly they were interested in taking the series into the 50s, which would definitely overtake the one-shot in chronology, but no official confirmation of that yet. I hope they do.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45246: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:13:28 AM

Actually, I think part of the problem is that we like rooting for the underdogs. If you are part of a huge, international police and surveillance organization, technically, you are not an underdog. That's why SHIELD had to be destroyed and outlawed before they became underdogs.

There's that too.

I think the best way to portray a police organization as the underdog without undercutting their authority would be to play up the power scaling. For instance, even as a multinational organization, S.H.I.E.L.D. would have had a hard time with Graviton if he was allowed the level of power he has in the comics. They're a massive organization but they're also powerless humans in a world of gods and monsters.

But the effects budget required to do that would never work in a TV show and is better suited to the comics.

NCIS in Space would be really cool.

Super cool. But a lot of superhero fans would abandon ship quickly.

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:14:35 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45247: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:15:18 AM

... Which is why it wasn't the greatest idea to start out Agents of SHIELD by having SHIELD go after a fictional version of Occupy Wall Street (with some Wikileaks thrown in).

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:16:52 AM by Hodor2

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#45248: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:16:52 AM

I wouldn't necessarily say they went after a fictional version of Occupy Wall Street. <.< The Rising Tide was never even on their map. They never even battled the Rising Tide, only a couple of specific members who were connected to more important things they were dealing with.

The Rising Tide was treated as a largely irrelevant background element except when they were connected to the real plot, not as a villain for S.H.I.E.L.D. to defeat.

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:17:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#45250: Oct 22nd 2015 at 11:35:27 AM

And since they already introduced the Novacorps, they've arguably already done that.

All they need to do now is to introduce the Nova helmet that grows a Powered Armor around the wearer of the helmet...

...That's how it normally works, right?

Ooh! They could have Nova's helmet be a Super Prototype! I literally thought of that just now!

edited 22nd Oct '15 11:39:29 AM by TargetmasterJoe


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