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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45201: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:38:19 AM

The big issue with the "Real" Mandarin doesn't have much to do with the twist - as pointed out, it's because they set up a plot thread that they had no good way (or intention, probably) of following up on. It's a gigantic loose end that's probably never going to be elaborated on, and imo it feels like a waste of a short because of it.

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:39:27 AM by KnownUnknown

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#45202: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:39:07 AM

Well, a character from the Ten Rings did show up in Ant-Man, but that might've been a pure Mythology Gag.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45203: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:39:10 AM

The twist actually made Iron Man 3 into one of my favourite MCU movies.

I should figure out that list again, now that Phase Two is over.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45204: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:43:37 AM

[up][up][up]But as I was saying before, it was only ever in a short film that was included as a DVD extra that chances are most of the audience didn't watch. It's something for the hardcore types who care about such things but it's not like they revealed the "Real Mandarin" thread in the actual movie and never followed up on it.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45205: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:44:19 AM

That's why I said "waste of a short" and not "waste of a movie/character."

The issue is with the short itself, not with the character as written in the movie. It's not like just because it's an extra that means its flaws shouldn't be pointed out.

[down] That too.

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:46:36 AM by KnownUnknown

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45206: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:46:09 AM

[up][up]But aren't the shorts technically MCU canon?

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45207: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:47:18 AM

Falrinn you dont get it. nova isnt happening just because you want it to!!! putting in unrealistic expectations will ruin your hope. currently theres no evidence of the studio bringing forth Richard Rider and that possibility wont begin with GOG 2

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:48:22 AM by xbimpy

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45208: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:50:13 AM

[up][up] everything part of the MCU is canon to the MCU...

Mandarin already appeared in the IM 3 prelude except faceless.

Some people here and other places declare certain mediums of the MCU to be less significant than others, which leads to comments like WELL THATS ONLY FOR DIE HARD FANS. but eventually everything comes together, so discounting one for another isnt wise.

leaving big threads loose for two more phases would make those threads loose credibility. why have the ten rings in ant man still active if mandarin wont be touched upon? it decreases my curiosity and believability that this mandarin is still out there giving orders. they arent homaging anything from the source material or anything else...

just like why have Carson break free in Ant Man with Pym Particles if you are never going to use him again beyond tiny head nods?

DOESNT MAKE SENSE

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:01:36 AM by xbimpy

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#45209: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:51:19 AM

@Alley Oop: Really? I didn't notice. Where was that Ten Ring member cameo?

"The twist actually made Iron Man 3 into one of my favourite MCU movies."

And it made it my least favourite to date. To each his own I guess.

That said, even though I hate Iron Man 3 as a whole (and not just for the twist and terrible villain; there are tons of other things wrong with it), I aknowledge it still had success and I won't be mad at Marvel for not following up the Real Mandarin thing (though I will be happily surprised if they do). As it is, Marvel is still doing great movies as far as I am concerned, and I have still yet to really lose my faith in them. I just consider Iron Man 3 something of their Parvum Opus. My personal opinion only of course.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45210: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:55:01 AM

[up][up][up][up]They're canon but that doesn't mean Marvel is obligated to (or interested in) following up on them.

If they had any real interest in continuing the Mandarin plot thread there's much more effective ways of introducing it instead of dumping it in a DVD extra most people probably aren't gonna watch.

edited 22nd Oct '15 9:56:14 AM by comicwriter

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45211: Oct 22nd 2015 at 9:59:18 AM

Imo, Iron Man 3 was a movie with a lot of potential that wasted most of it - a lot like Thor 2. It clearly attempts to do the opposite of Iron Man 2 in many respects (very little worldbuilding/development beyond continuity nods, focus on big action foremost, etc), but ended up with a lot of the same problem as it despite it (imo, Iron Man 2 is better, but not by all that much).

I also thought the twist was an amazing idea, but they wasted it by only vaguely developing their actual villain beforehand and practically turning him into Snidely Whiplash afterward.

[up] And if they had no interest in continuing the Mandarin thread, there were far more effective things to use that short on. So far, besides Agent Carter which was explicitly used as more of a pilot of the series (thus making its loose ends somewhat moot), it's the only one that ultimately suffers from such a loose end problem.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:04:17 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45212: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:01:27 AM

Falrinn you dont get it. nova isnt happening just because you want it to!!! putting in unrealistic expectations will ruin your hope.

xbimby, let me let you in on a secret: don't tell people what to think. It's bad form. In an argument, you present your evidence and the other side presents theirs. You don't say, "you dont get it." Never say that. It's condescending and mean.

Nova/Richard Rider and Nova/Sam Alexander will not show up in Guardians of the Galaxy. But that doesn't mean that they will never show up in the MCU. You don't know that they won't — all you are basing this off of is James Gunn not wanting Nova in GOTG. But James Gunn isn't in charge of the entire MCU and if they wanted to expand the Cosmic Marvel side, Nova is a prime example of what they could do.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#45213: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:02:02 AM

[up][up][up] One of the guys working Donovan, I think.

As for the Mandarin One-Shot, I see it as something similar to The Consultant. Fixes a plot hole, throws a bone to some of the fans in the process, which part of the audience they were primarily catering to probably isn't relevant. Ben Kingsley hamming it up made it worthwhile in my opinion.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:02:20 AM by AlleyOop

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45214: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:06:38 AM

And if they had no interest in continuing the Mandarin thread, there were far more effective things to use that short on. So far, besides Agent Carter which was explicitly used as more of a pilot of the series (thus making its loose ends somewhat moot), it's the only one that ultimately suffers from such a loose end problem.

Even Agent Carter: The Series more or less abandoned the plot about the Zodiac Council (unless I'm remembering wrong) so it's not like these things introducing plot elements that aren't followed up on is unheard.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:07:03 AM by comicwriter

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45215: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:07:07 AM

I'm telling him he should not put these expectations in place because they will disappoint when not met. This is a very logical thing to say -___-. I care for our fans satisfaction. And his isn't going to be met anytime soon because he's desiring something personal that just will not drop out of the sky.

Have you never taken a human service class where you learn how to deal with unrealistic expectations? They aren't very healthily...

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:11:27 AM by xbimpy

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#45216: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:11:08 AM

[up][up] Again, Agent Carter was ultimately used more as a pilot for the series, which explains its loose ends - the Agent Carter series removed Agent Carter the one-shot from continuity.

It would be nice if they reintroduced ZODIAC, though.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:13:29 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45217: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:11:27 AM

I'm telling him he should not put these expectations in place because they will disappoint when not met.

You don't know that. You cannot predict the future.

Have you never taken a human service class where you learn how to deal with unrealistic expectations? They aren't very healthily.

It's unrealistic to expect a character currently being published by Marvel (and which Marvel has the full rights to) to show up in the MCU? Hell, Misty Knight is going to show up in the MCU. I think you are being unrealistic by saying it's "unrealistic."

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:12:48 AM by alliterator

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45218: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:14:35 AM

Richard Rider is not showing up in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Ant Man & Wasp, Spiderman, Black Panther, or Captain America Civil War nor are the Nova Corps having a substantial role for Gunn's sequel (by substantial I mean carrying more weight than one dimensional space cops).

And you just proved to me you don't know what unrealistic expectations are -___-'. Example = Fan: I WANT VENOM IN SPIDERMAN. Director: But the story is centered on 15 year old Peter Parker. Fan: BUT I WANT VENOM IN SPIDERMAN!

The same applies to Richard Rider. At this moment he isn't going to appear nor are there any movies setting him up. Except it more and more but that only brings disappointment until fulfillment. Who would put themselves through such torturer, waiting year after year only to get angrier and angrier because he isn't appearing yet? Then suddenly BAM the frown turns into a smile 10 years later... and that would be out of luck if the desire turned out true.

Excepting something that's not going to happen = unstratification. You can either wait for decades until it does or move on with your life and except reality the way it is, not how you want it to be. Unless your in a position of power you can't change it

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:25:56 AM by xbimpy

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45219: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:17:52 AM

RE Item 47, given that Bennie and Claire were taken in by Sitwell and Sitwell turned out to be Hydra, I think we can guess what happened to them. I mean at best, they are probably making weapons for Hydra now (and if lucky think they are working for SHIELD).

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:18:17 AM by Hodor2

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#45220: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:18:26 AM

[up][up]I'm only really aware of Nova in the abstract and don't have any real stake in a Nova movie one way or the other. I just feel that he's a plausible phase 4 character regardless of what James Gunn wants to do with the Guardians of the Galaxy movies.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:18:47 AM by Falrinn

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45221: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:19:51 AM

Richard Rider is not showing up in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Ant Man & Wasp, Spiderman, Black Panther, or Captain America Civil War nor are the Nova Corps having a substantial role for Gunn's sequel (by substantial I mean carrying more weight than one dimensional space cops).

1) Why would Nova show up in any of those movies? Aside from GOTG, none of them are Cosmic Marvel movies.

2) There are three unknown MCU movies coming out in 2020. You have no idea what any of them will be. Don't act like you do.

And you just proved to me you don't know what unrealistic expectations are -___-'. This is going nowhere.

"Unrealistic" means that it has a slim-to-none chance of it happening. Nova appearing has an okay-to-good chance of it happening - since they have already appeared in the first GOTG film. All it would take would be a Nova crash landing onto Earth and boom. There's the movie.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:20:39 AM by alliterator

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45222: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:29:24 AM

"Well, a character from the Ten Rings did show up in Ant-Man, but that might've been a pure Mythology Gag."

Marvel: "The audience members who catch that will instantly understand that it's just us being cute and that we're not really setting up for anything major, just like with the one-shot. In fact lets keep dropping these little nudges and winks. No one will get the wrong idea! lololololololol!"

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:34:29 AM by nervmeister

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#45223: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:33:24 AM

So I'm just going to spitball for a bit:

I don't think it would be all that unrealistic for what's left of the Nova Corps to be trailing Thanos after he cracks Xandar open like an egg. So if they show up during or after Infinity Wars, it wouldn't exactly be that off the wall.

Really though, none of that is necessary. I mean, really, R Ichard Rider could just be a normal Xandarian Nova Corps member that gets to be the first guy to use the new Nova Force tech, or whatever. The set-up is done. Xandar exists. The Nova Corps exists. No need to bend over backwards to make ends meet.

Really though, Marvel can do anything at this point. So don't tell people that their hopes are just unrealistic. I was told the same thing when I said I wanted a Doctor Strange movie. Guess what? They were wrong.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:34:21 AM by Zeromaeus

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#45224: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:34:16 AM

[up] "1) Why would Nova show up in any of those movies? Aside from GOTG, none of them are Cosmic Marvel movies." I already said that 3 pages ago and here as well -___-'.

Your second argument doesn't change my point, which is once again about unrealistic expectations. Richard Rider has no chance of being set up from five movies, therefore leaving 4 movies to do the job or Agents of SHIELD. How big is the chance for him to appear in those titles? Then there is a stand alone, which you yourself said would be too similar to Green Lantern, while I acknowledged without proper world building it would be a poor man's Green Lantern devoid of context. World building is exactly what the Nova Corps needs, but Gunn is focused on fleshing out his primary cast. His boss Kevin shows no sign of interfering with that discussion. Therefore, I come to the conclusion Phase 3 = no Nova. Phase 4 = how the fuck does he appear after missed opportunities?

2020

2021

2022

2023

How long do you want to wait until Rhomann Dey comes to Earth long after Thanos tried to destroy the universe? Uhuhm... Que Thanos. That's your biggest opportunity right there, a reason to come to Earth for Richard.

But all this Nova is fantasy talk. I want a lot of characters to appear, but only recognize the ones that provide me with evidence that says loudly I SHALL appear. For example I want Amadeus Cho because of his mother in Age of Ultron. That doesn't mean I cling onto the hope he shows up before I die and each moment he doesn't my hope turns into anguish as I loose patience

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:51:15 AM by xbimpy

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#45225: Oct 22nd 2015 at 10:35:10 AM

Marvel: "The audience members who catch that will instantly understand that it's just us being cute and that we're not really setting up for anything major, just like with the one-shot. In fact lets keep dropping these little nudges and winks. No one will get the wrong idea! lololololololol!"

Iron Man 3 was seen by well over a hundred million people.

The average Iron Man comic book is seen by a hundred thousand people in a really good month. Even that might be highballing it.

The fraction of the audience frustrated by being teased about the possible reappearance of a character they have no prior attachment to is so minuscule as to not be worth considering.

edited 22nd Oct '15 10:35:29 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

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