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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45151: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:12:36 AM

Like others have said, the "True Mandarin" thing was just throwing fans a bone. They're never going to use him.

They can't use him for Iron Man 4 because there's never going to be an Iron Man 4 and they can't use him for another hero because that detracts from that hero's rogues. Like, Mandarin fans say he can be in Doctor Strange but how many Strange fans would be pleased if, instead of Baron Mordo or Dormammu or Shuma-Gorath, Strange is just beating up Iron Man's castoffs?

He could be an Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. villain but with the effects budget that a television show has, you're probably not going to get any power rings. He just going to be an asshole warlord who might have a couple special powers and a whole bunch of entirely human mooks. And by virtue of his role on the show, he's going to be taken down by a handful of mostly-human grunts, thereby proving that Iron Man would have wrecked him in seconds.

Pretty much every suggestion of how they should make the True Mandarin movie just sounds significantly shittier than Killian, the Mandarin whose movie they already made. That's the biggest reason why there's never going to be a True Mandarin movie: after Iron Man 3, there is no way to do it well.

edited 22nd Oct '15 7:14:52 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45152: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:15:42 AM

"Pretty much every suggestion of how they should make the True Mandarin movie just sounds significantly shittier than Killian, the Mandarin whose movie they already made."

What about making him Howard Stark's (aka. spiritual Silver Age Tony's) nemesis in Agent Carter?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45153: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:16:45 AM

So, after All Hail The King, he travelled back in time somehow to be the main villain of a series that took place decades prior?

If he's not going to have any connection to the short that is the only reason fans think this character exists in the first place, then they might as well never do him.

Also, that still has the problem of the Mandarin being able to be beaten by Howard Stark and Agent Carter, thoroughly establishing that he could never menace Iron Man because he can't even handle two powerless normals.

edited 22nd Oct '15 7:17:34 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45154: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:16:50 AM

If we want Nova, why not make him a completely different guy, as in, not involved with the Nova Corps? Make him Inhuman or something.

Because...then he wouldn't be Nova? I don't understand - why swap him out if we already have the Nova Corps?

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45155: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:19:44 AM

[up][up]He never traveled back in time. He was still very much alive and a threat during that period. Then he went dormant after Howard foiled him. Or that's at least how I'd establish it.

And Howard, despite not being an armor-clad powerhouse, is still a genius inventor who has whipped up some pretty scary shit (which kind of kicked off the 1st arc of the show in fact).

edited 22nd Oct '15 7:24:06 AM by nervmeister

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#45156: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:22:21 AM

@Tobias, Hold on, I need to get this out of my system... Doctor Strange has fans?

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Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#45157: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:24:25 AM

Not sure about the movie, but the comics certainly do.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#45158: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:34:36 AM

He never traveled back in time. He was still very much alive and a threat during that period. Then he went dormant after Howard foiled him. Or that's at least how I'd establish it.

And Howard, despite not being an armor-clad powerhouse, is still a genius inventor who has whipped up some pretty scary shit (which kind of kicked off the 1st arc of the show in fact).

And then he came back in All Hail the King? In what way does this resolve the cliffhanger?

And yes, Howard is a pretty genius inventor, but here's the thing: to justify his existence, the "True Mandarin" needs to be bigger and better and badder than Killian. Could Howard and Carter have dismantled A.I.M., defeated the army of Extremis agents, and killed Killian?

If the "True Mandarin" is not more Mandarin than Killian, then why should he even be a character at all?

edited 22nd Oct '15 7:36:45 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45159: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:35:42 AM

I hope the "True Mandarin" bullshit never shows up in anything.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#45160: Oct 22nd 2015 at 7:50:05 AM

I think having a "True Mandarin" is a problem because it is so much against the message of the movie, which satirizes the idea of some kind of shadowy "evil Other" who hates us for our freedom and has a hand in everything bad that happens.

Now granted, the MCU sort of undermines this point because of Hydra- but significantly, Hydra are an enemy within and don't traffic in the "evil foreigner" angle of the Mandarin, which the movie satirizes.

PCM Since: Oct, 2015
#45161: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:00:39 AM

[up]x13 or so. What people are saying is that Nova doesn't need a backdoor pilot. No movie needs a backdoor pilot unless you make it so. A Nova movie could function without being set up in a cosmic movie.

On the subject of cliffhangers, not every plot needs to be followed up. I'd hardly consider the mandarin thing a cliffhanger. I doubt they'd follow up on something in a movie if it was only shown in a one-shot, which are usually just for fun or "throwing the fans a bone" as some have said.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45162: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:26:02 AM

Even if it did require a Back Door Pilot, there's easy enough ways to do that. We have at lest three movies coming out involving space stuff.

Thanos attacks Xanadar to get the Power Stone from their vault. The Nova Corps fight back and end up crippled and nearly wiped out. In the post-credit scene we find that an experimental Nova Corps weapon somehow ends up on Earth in the hands of Richard Rider or Sam Alexander.

Boom. There's your Backdoor Pilot.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45163: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:32:14 AM

[up][up][up][up]Than can Feige at least go on the record and say, "NO! You aint gonna see him EVER cause we don't want China to take their ball and go home! Now fuck off!"? It's better than leaving us with false hope and denying us closure. It's like telling the grieving parents of a missing child that he may still be out there when you know you have him in a series of jars in the morgue. But since the parents are still paying you to keep looking into it, you figure "They don't have to know right away, do they?".

[up]x5

If Mandarin and AIM existed back during the postwar world, they wouldn't have today's technology at their disposal. So of course they'd be less powerful than now.

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:36:59 AM by nervmeister

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#45164: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:34:24 AM

The only people expecting the real Mandarin are folks who saw the DVD extras. For most of the audience the Mandarin's story ended when Killian got his head blown off.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#45165: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:34:39 AM

and all this for a pretty mediocre character

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#45166: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:34:58 AM

[up][up][up]...that is the dumbest comparison I've ever heard.

I dunno if you guys noticed but the Mandarin is a fictional character

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:35:10 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45167: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:40:44 AM

This is all making me hungry.

Anyone got any mandarins?

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#45168: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:41:45 AM

[up][up][up][up]Maybe. But they're still pricks if they threw that at those now hopeful fans with no intention of following up on it, and yet aren't coming clean about it.

[up][up][up]A mediocre character with a LOT of potential for re-invigoration (something that Iron Man 3 squandered)

[up][up]It is a brilliant (if somewhat melodramatic) comparison! Don't be afraid to admit envy. We all get like that now and then.

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:49:16 AM by nervmeister

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45169: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:43:54 AM

effects budget that a television show has, you're probably not going to get any power rings. He just going to be an asshole warlord

This is an argument I've never understood. Television doesn't operate on a shoestring. They have money to spend on effects, and while worrying about budget is valid when concerned that they can't create a character (read that as "She-Hulk") that's entirely CGI for long periods of time (The Flash managed to do Gorilla Grodd pretty okay, but you bypass the Uncanny Valley by him being an ape not a human, and also he can have limited screentime), doing effects is not that big an issue.

For example, Barry's powers and Firestorm on The Flash, Daisy and Lincoln's abilities on Agents of Shield, and the digital blood and explosions on display in nearly every police procedural on television. Elemental abilities are really not out of reach. The limits of what they can do are well above "man shooting fire from his hands."

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:44:32 AM by BadWolf21

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45170: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:45:03 AM

I imagine that ABC and The CW have different levels of budgeting for their shows.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#45171: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:46:43 AM

Yes, I'm sure they do. ABC being the one with vastly more resources.

Also, I used Agents of SHIELD examples, as well as just general television digital effects.

I mean, Heroes was doing superpowers way back in 2005, for Asgard's sakes!

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:47:53 AM by BadWolf21

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#45172: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:47:25 AM

Oh, great, someone brought back the Mandarin topic while I was away. And things didn't improve as I see... *Sigh* Well, I already gave my opinion on the topic, and I honestly think the True Mandarin thing could be well-used (though I doubt it will), so aside from that I won't come back on it. Oh, and on a note Tobias: you might be wrong. From what I heard, they changed their mind and are already working on an Iron Man 4. I admit I am not sure about the source, though, hence the "might".

Now, on an unrelated note, I am probably being paranoid, but I am kinda afraid they will base MCU Spider-Man on the Ultimate Spider-Man version so it'll match their animation.... God I hope they won't be that stupid.

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:48:32 AM by Theokal3

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#45173: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:50:38 AM

Rumors surrounding a possible Iron Man 4 have existed since Iron Man 3 was released but Marvel has said no every time. RDJ has also refused every time someone asked him if he was returning for Iron Man 4. His contract expires at Infinity War and he's given every indication that he's done with the MCU after that.

Unless Marvel intends to recast RDJ, there will be no Iron Man 4 no matter how many tabloids grasp at whatever straws they can find to "prove" it's in development.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#45174: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:52:17 AM

I still think they can have the Mandarin as the father of Shang-Chi. That would be a neat twist.

Of course, then they would have to find some way to avoid Yellow Peril again.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#45175: Oct 22nd 2015 at 8:53:18 AM

Who's talking about rumors? I was referring to an more recent interview post-Age of Ultron where RDJ begrudgingly admitted it was in discussion now. What makes me hesitate to consider the source as reliable is that the article was in french, and I couldn't find any confirmation in english.

Also I already discussed the Yellow Peril aspect. Just making the Mandarin chinese doesn't automatically makes him a Yellow Peril villain. I mean, for Christ's sake, I am french and you don't hear me complain about Grey Gargoyle or Batroc the Leaper.

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:55:36 AM by Theokal3


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