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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44476: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:18:01 PM

Daredevil is pretty dark. You couldn't see people's faces half the time due to the lighting.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#44477: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:18:40 PM

It being presented as a bad thing doesn't make it less dark, though. And it doesn't really endear Matt to me.

But again, just to be perfectly clear: I'm not trying to convince anyone that Daredevil is terrible, and everyone is wrong for liking it. I understand I'm the minority and I probably have bad taste.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#44478: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:23:18 PM

@HBP: Well, technically beating people for information is torture, but there was that thing in the second episode.

@Wackd: Does a show have to be that way to be considered dark and gritty? It seems rather limiting to me, and a lot of people probably don't use that exact definition.

edited 11th Oct '15 2:28:02 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#44479: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:35:26 PM

That guy was trying to come after Claire, though.

And he was part of a gang which kidnaps kids and pushes around drugs, so they're not exactly good guys either.

I like Matt, and his friendship with both Foggy and Karen endears him to me.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#44480: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:40:33 PM

I'm not sure what the issue with the torture scene is. The "victim" was affiliated with child kidnapping, and whatever they planned to do to Claire after suspecting she was harboring Matt.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#44481: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:43:02 PM

Torture is never justified, far as I'm concerned. I don't care what you did, you don't deserve torture.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44482: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:44:26 PM

I can't say I have an issue with the torture either in this case.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#44483: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:49:07 PM

And if he didn't beat the information out of that guy, then the child they kidnapped is either dead or sold off to some slave trader.

"Sorry, your child is dead or worse because I was too squeamish or sympathetic to make one of the shitbags who took him tell me what I want to know."

edited 11th Oct '15 2:51:06 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#44484: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:59:13 PM

Problem is, tv and movies always create these situations where torture is the only option to get information (and it is necessary to get that information immediately)- and usually the victim is the most unsympathetic person possible.

It rather serves to justify/normalize the use of torture.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#44485: Oct 11th 2015 at 2:59:56 PM

Thats the mushroom cloud argument.

From 24 and such.

And the thing about that is that people see it on tv and then assume the world works that way. Policy makers too.

And sure, Daredevil has bullshit Toph-senses but thats not what people take away. They take away 'torture totally works and is the only option'

And it only works because the writer set it up to work. They could have set it up so that Daredevil goes through the location data on the guy's phone or something. Or finds a key on the guy. Or analyzes the dirt on his shoes and finds traces of a Clue because it will work as long as the writer wants it to work.

Granted, then you have to do something else to show that this lifestyle is really bad for Matt's psyche.

[up] Or that.

edited 11th Oct '15 3:00:25 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44486: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:02:28 PM

Yeah I get that, still doesn't really make me have a problem with it.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#44487: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:07:40 PM

Yeah, here's the thi,g, if that guy isn't willing to tell you where that kid is, you're not getting that info with torture, either. Torture doesn't fucking work.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44488: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:14:19 PM

I get that torture doesn't work in real life, and I get that depicting it as working in fiction is problematic. None of that has to mean that I should just dislike it when a work uses it and shows it working. That's my last personal word on the subject.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#44489: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:23:55 PM

Related but apparently Marvel asked that Daredevil and Jessica Jones not be included in the Lego Avengers game because they didn't want kids watching the shows.

Apparently there were some very uncomfortable parents at the Jessica Jones pilot screening last night too, lol.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#44490: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:23:59 PM

I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to Anominalacaris

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44491: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:26:54 PM

[up]Oh, I didn't see any arrows so I couldn't tell.

[up][up]That's really for the best. Funny though.

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#44492: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:32:25 PM

Honest question: is it really torture if he's only using his fists? It's not like he waterboards or electrocutes anyone.

Make mine Marvel.
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#44494: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:36:08 PM

yes it is, torture refers to any means of psychologically or physically inflicting harm to someone who can't fight back for a prolonged period of time.

what is being refered to is a specific incident early in the show where matt, with the help of someone else, is causing a thug a LOT of pain by hitting a nerve behind his eye or something to get information.

that absolutely is torture, but if he was just beating up some guy tied to a chair for a long time, that would also be torture.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#44495: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:40:16 PM

On someone who's fanatically obsessed with their cause or has some other motive, yeah, they'd sooner die than tell you anything, but on someone who's just in it for money or some other self-serving purpose, I'm not sure why torture wouldn't at least be effective, if not morally dubious.

Logically, if you can put them in a situation where it's in their best interest to talk, they'd talk, no? Everything else they're doing is for their own betterment, so why not that?

It's not a rhetorical question, I'm seriously asking.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#44496: Oct 11th 2015 at 3:47:30 PM

It is not really correct that Torture is ineffective. It is ineffective specifically for confessions, because the victim will say whatever the torturer wants to escape the pain. You can therefore never be sure if the victim lies or not.

But if it is about getting information, information which can be checked for truthfulness, then yes, torture can be effective, provided that the victim in question knows what you want to know. You still have the check the answers though, because lying is always a possibility.

Agent of Shield actually addressed this point in the last season. In the scene in question the victim is supposed to apologize for a so called crime, and calls out her torturer by pointing out that even if she does apologize eventually, she won't mean a word of it. (To be honest, I found the scene more graphic than the Daredevil one).

edited 11th Oct '15 3:49:31 PM by Swanpride

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#44498: Oct 11th 2015 at 4:01:11 PM

Given that the main issue with torture's practicality is the issue of falsified information to escape the pain, and Matt Murdock doesn't HAVE that issue since he's a Living Lie Detector, I'm not sure I'm seeing the issue with the scene.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#44499: Oct 11th 2015 at 4:04:30 PM

Because it's fucking wrong to torture someone.

I don't know how much more clear I can be that I have strong moral objections to this shit.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#44500: Oct 11th 2015 at 4:41:38 PM

Guys, let's just drop the torture debate. Or take it to the appropriate thread, if there is one.

edited 11th Oct '15 4:42:03 PM by higherbrainpattern


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