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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#44326: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:14:45 PM

Make Jarvis a chick. Make Fennhoff a chick. Make the telephone operators moderately important. There. You keep your all-dude SSR without making it so only one woman has an actual character plot.

It would not be super-difficult to retcon in a reason why JARVIS in modern times has a masculine voice. Perhaps that JARVIS is based on fem!Jarvis' never-seen husband.

edited 10th Oct '15 7:16:03 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#44327: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:23:37 PM

JARVIS is (according to tie-in material) based on Howard's butler who took care of Tony when he was a child. You'd need to find Edith Jarvis some other function rather than butler (because that by canon has to be a male Jarvis) and still have her serve Male!Jarvis role as Howard's herald somehow.

Really gender flipping Jarvis requires too much mental gymnastics.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#44328: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:23:42 PM

Tony met the actual Jarvis in person. He was raised by him personally for goodness' sake. And the tie-in comics don't just state he's male, they explicitly show him on-panel.

Also, it allows the show to portray a pair of opposite-sex leads who are purely platonic Heterosexual Life-Partners who have utterly zero UST. It's still amazingly rare to the point that movies like Pacific Rim are one of the exceptions that proves the rule. You might not think it matters, but for a ton of people (including myself) it's a huge media issue.

edited 10th Oct '15 7:26:16 PM by AlleyOop

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#44329: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:26:40 PM

No, shut up. Just make all of them women. Recast everyone. An all-female universe. Except for the villains. The villains can all be men because they all die anyway.

My various fanfics.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#44330: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:28:19 PM

Ignore the tie-in comics.

I have a hard time believing those have never been contradicted so much as once already.

edited 10th Oct '15 7:41:33 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#44331: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:31:40 PM

"Ignore official works to accommodate me."

My various fanfics.
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#44332: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:32:11 PM

"Also the whole point and focus of the series."

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#44333: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:32:23 PM

It's not just a tie-in comics thing. In the main comics, Jarvis is a living guy (don't think there's an AI of him although wouldn't surprise me if the comics adapted that idea at some point).

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44334: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:32:43 PM

Dude. Must you do this everytime someone says something about being progressive?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#44335: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:34:28 PM

@Sonofsharknado

Two strawmen don't make a right. Responding to offense by being overly easily offended yourself doesn't help anyone.

Re: the tie-in comics, to date the only one which has been overwritten is the first Captain America one, by The Winter Soldier. And that was a relatively last minute change, since it was originally going to open with the line spoken in a war flashback at the beginning. All the other ones still hold true, including the Iron Man 3 prelude that explained Rhodey's absence during The Avengers and which pretty much everyone accepts as canon.

edited 10th Oct '15 7:38:05 PM by AlleyOop

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#44336: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:35:18 PM

[up][up][up] The comics did end up adopting the concept, I believe.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#44337: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:37:41 PM

I can see the argument though for having Peggy interact with some of the SSR secretaries. Because as it is, the show does sort of present Peggy as extraordinary- I mean she is in that she's basically James Bond- but I mean she isn't the only woman facing a glass ceiling.

That being said, Angie reinforces the idea of that being a universal concern. Also, I think the plotting may have suffered had Peggy had such a bond- both because of timing/pacing issues and because a big aspect of the season is that Peggy doesn't really feel much loyalty toward her co-workers.

Edit- But yeah, besides the fact that he's male in all comics tie in or otherwise, it's important for Jarvis to be a guy- both for having a male and female who are friends without a romantic aspect- and probably also to avoid portraying all male characters on the show as sexist lugs.

edited 10th Oct '15 7:39:43 PM by Hodor2

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#44338: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:43:52 PM

[up]Agreed. Otherwise the whole show becomes a bad caricature.

There's also Howard I guess.

edited 10th Oct '15 7:47:22 PM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#44339: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:51:36 PM

I mean, if there was something I'd like them to change about Agent Carter, it's that even though Peggy is really charming we don't actually know that much about her. She's definitely not in danger of becoming a Mary Sue, but it would be nice if the show went into more of her backstory or if she had some serious character flaws to explore and overcome, the way Thor had to overcome his own arrogance or Peter Quill learned to be less immature.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#44340: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:54:36 PM

I think she has had said flaws to overcome. The first few episodes had her struggling with becoming distant to friends and denying help out of fear, something that Jarvis kindly encourages her out of. Then by the last episode she's learned to value herself instead of wishing for awards and praise. She also turned out to be just as vulnerable to the "supposedly meek lady" dupe, as Dottie proved.

Though getting more backstory I certainly wouldn't mind. We don't know anything about her pre-war life. If Sharon is her niece, then she must have a sibling somewhere.

edited 10th Oct '15 7:58:08 PM by Tuckerscreator

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#44341: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:12:53 PM

It would have been completely inappropriate at the time for Howard, a bachelor and notorious lady's man, to have a female butler (besides the fact that it's not a particularly common concept to begin with).

And from a narrative perspective, it doesn't make a lot of sense either. Peggy and Jarvis are a reversal of the typical James Bond/Bond Girl dynamic: she's the superstar secret agent, he's the assistant dragged along for the ride, and there's absolutely nothing sexual between them.

By making Jarvis a woman, you not only lose that commentary, you lose one of the few non-chauvinist men in the show, and you don't add any kind of message worth having, either. It adds another woman to Peggy's life, but because we already have Angie as our "regular gal" character, doubling down on that with Jarvis does nothing except start sending the message that Peggy is special despite being a woman.

Removing the character of Jarvis from the role he serves as a foil to Peggy and treating him as his own character, there's also the fact that the central tension in his character is that he's a very peaceful and non-violent person despite his military background. If Jarvis is a woman in the 1940s, he can't have that background, and the entire character is something different.

There is a right way and a wrong way to suggest how to include more women and people of colour in something. Pointing at a given character and saying "Why weren't they [x]? They should have been [x]!" is the wrong way, and isn't conducive to anything besides combative arguments.

ETA: Also, the MCU already has a female Jarvis. Her name is Pepper Potts. tongue

edited 10th Oct '15 8:23:11 PM by BadWolf21

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#44342: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:24:20 PM

Well put.

Another thing that struck me- In the first Iron Man movie, the scene with Christine Everheart and Pepper kind of rubs me the wrong way- by having Pepper talk about taking out the trash, it feels like the movie is encouraging us to denigrate the women Tony seduces by having another female character give approval. And it's sort of like Pepper is the exception that proves the rule as far as the movie's view of women goes.

Agent Carter does the opposite. It seems to disapprove of Howard's philandering and doesn't look down on his conquests- and one way that comes across is by having both Peggy and Jarvis disapprove of Howard's behavior. If Jarvis was female, you'd have a repeat of the Pepper situation.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#44343: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:36:26 PM

I think that is Pepper's way of showing disapproval. But yeah, it's an iffy line. I generally interpret it as being about Pepper's opinion of Christine Everheart in particular, rather than of Tony's late-night horizontal buddies in general.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#44344: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:38:15 PM

She does try treating her with utmost respect and civility at first, she only unleashes that remark when Christine makes a condescending observation about her role as Stark's secretary.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#44345: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:39:05 PM

[up][up],[up][up][up]That's what I got from it too. IIRC it was because she was being particularly dismissive of Pepper.

[up]That must've been it [tup]

edited 10th Oct '15 8:40:14 PM by AlleyOop

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#44346: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:50:07 PM

I seem to recall that Pepper basically Ran Tony's life and without her he sorta... Well, he left her behind when he went to Iraq, and look how that turned out.

And now she runs Stark Industries.

It's quite clearly Tony that's on the leash in the relationship, not Pepper.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#44347: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:52:17 PM

Or there's, y'know, not a leash.

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#44348: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:11:17 PM

Hey, who knows what they get up to! [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#44349: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:14:07 PM

Well, season 2 of Agent Carter will have Anna Jarvis (Jarvis' wife) befriend Peggy, and we know that Dottie is coming back. No word about Angie yet, though.

Also, Madame Masque is a Hedy Lamarr-type actress who's also the main villain.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#44350: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:30:02 PM

[up][up][up][up]

he went to Iraq, and look how that turned out.

Afghanistan. Not Iraq.


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