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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#44151: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:54:44 AM

What we're saying is Black Widow fanbase is more or less irrelevant in the grand scheme of Ant-Man's box office. Besides the fact there's little evidence of a fanbase-wide full boycott of Ant-Man, her fanbase (as ill-defined as the term "fanbase" is) just isn't numerous enough to make a difference to the box office.

If any "fanbase" hurt the movie, it was Edgar Wright's being annoyed with his departure, and even then it's a stretch.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#44152: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:57:07 AM

Your case is, "Ant-Man was financially successful." My case is, "Ant-Man is financially successful but not as successful as it could have been if a portion of the fanbase wasn't spitefully refusing to see it."

Your argument is built on a faulty premise, though. You are speculating about what could have happened with no evidence to support it. Seriously, you literally have no evidence that suggests the boycott was anything except a drop in the bucket.

Where are your numbers? How big was the boycott? How many people did it involve?

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#44153: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:57:22 AM

it's because the number of black widow fans who wouldn't go see the movie as some sort of boycott would be so small it wouldn't really make much of a difference, so why even bother mentioning it?

[nja]

edited 8th Oct '15 10:57:41 AM by wehrmacht

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#44154: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:57:44 AM

"No, totally, guys! A female lead in a movie would be great! It'd be wonderful and spectacular and we'll totally do it! We just need to make another fifty to sixty movies about white men."

My various fanfics.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#44155: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:58:42 AM

Tobias, a question: can you prove that the number of Black Widow fans who decided to boycott the film in response to the lack of a Black Widow movie was substantial enough to damage Ant Man's box office numbers?

Where is your evidence?

edited 8th Oct '15 10:59:27 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#44156: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:00:09 AM

You're right. It is speculation and is based entirely on word-of-mouth and general buzz I've heard. This is not a scientific study. This whole thing erupted from me saying that the franchise could make more money if a Black Widow movie was announced and everyone immediately jumping down my throat for it.

The facts are the facts and the rest is open to interpretation. My interpretation is that the angry Black Widow fans who were vocal in their disdain towards Ant-Man contributed to its less than stellar box opening. I've heard similar disdain calling Captain America Civil War a "last chance" for the MCU to prove that they have any respect at all for the character, along with threats like, "If the just added Sharon Carter to Cap's side so that Black Widow can be consigned to a Designated Girl Fight, I'm done with this franchise."

We'll see what happens.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#44157: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:03:19 AM

You're right. It is speculation and is based entirely on word-of-mouth and general buzz I've heard.

Except I haven't heard any of that buzz at all. I heard disgruntled Wasp fans who wanted Janet van Dyne, but I never heard anything about disgruntled Black Widow fans.

This is not a scientific study. This whole thing erupted from me saying that the franchise could make more money if a Black Widow movie was announced and everyone immediately jumping down my throat for it.

Yeah, you made a statement which was not supported by anything at all and people called you out. That's generally what happens.

I've heard similar disdain calling Captain America: Civil War a "last chance" for the MCU to prove that they have any respect at all for the character, along with threats like, "If the just added Sharon Carter to Cap's side so that Black Widow can be consigned to a Designated Girl Fight, I'm done with this franchise."

I've never heard any of those sentiments and hell, I go on Tumblr.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#44158: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:05:45 AM

[up][up] I don't that they're pissed, I'm just doubting that they're enough to make a noticeable difference.

I think a Black Widow film would make money too. I'm just saying that you were making claims with no real proof, and presenting them as if they were the likely truth.

Natasha's going to be fighting Clint at least once, though, so I don't think that's a major concern.

edited 8th Oct '15 11:07:30 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#44159: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:06:45 AM

Give Black Widow her own Netflix series. More time for character development and intrigue. The MCU films are more about the onscreen spectacle that powered individuals (or those with fantastical tech) bring.

edited 8th Oct '15 11:10:07 AM by nervmeister

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44160: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:10:49 AM

Tobias you made an unsubstantiated claim that there were enough upset Black Widows fans refusing the see the Ant-Man movie that it seriously hampered how much money that film made. That's why everyone is disagreeing with you, you have and continue to show no proof on your end. Not even a freaking Tumblr link.

Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#44161: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:14:25 AM

Im pretty sure disgruntled wright fans hurt the movie way more than disgruntled Black Widow fans. but now they have seen it was good and that the best scenes werent even in wrights movie so the new one should do better.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#44162: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:18:41 AM

[up][up][up]Scarlett Johansson is probably much too expensive for a Black Widow Netflix series.

Honestly though, I think the lack of a Black Widow movie in the slate is probably almost entirely for the same reason there is no Hawkeye movie. Marvel doesn't want to make a movie about a Badass Normal when they could make a movie about someone with tangible (if sometimes just tech-based) superpowers.

edited 8th Oct '15 11:20:03 AM by Falrinn

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#44163: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:26:40 AM

Just saying, and granted this is anecdotal evidence, but a lot of the Black Widow fans I follow or are followed by people I follow still went and saw the movie despite their initial misgivings, due to things like positive word of mouth or various Just For Godzilla things like the second stinger. Even if they're definitely annoyed their antipathy is being blown out of proportion. Besides a lot of them have wisened up to the fact that this movie is Older Than They Think.

Also, while some people have legitimate reasons to dislike Sharon (mostly longtime comic fans, which many of the following are not), many complaints about her, including the one Tobias mentioned, are ultimately rooted in angry shippers feeling threatened that her presence will torpedo their OTP and finding secondary excuses to validate why she shouldn't be in the movie. I mean I can understand disappointment at the lack of LGBT representation and wanting Cap to be bisexual, and Cap/Sharon is kinda squicky and would probably be a Romantic Plot Tumor if it did happened this soon, but one thing I absolutely can't stand is Die for Our Ship-motivated misogyny coated in "feminist" varnish. It's a common pattern that I wish would've died in the 80s and 90s. If it's an issue you genuinely care about, then the people you should be mad at are the writers and people making the movie, not characters who make for easy targets.

These types of people don't actually care about social justice beyond the superfice. They're just using it as an excuse to feel self-righteous and frame a subjective opinion as more objective than it really is in the face of disagreement.

edited 8th Oct '15 11:54:32 AM by AlleyOop

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#44164: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:28:13 AM

[up][up]Well yeah. Exactly as I said. As for the issue with Scar-jo being too pricey, if it's a prequel series taking place when a visibly younger Natasha was getting her feet wet as an assassin/spy, they can cast a TV actress to play her.

edited 8th Oct '15 11:28:37 AM by nervmeister

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#44165: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:33:26 AM

I really want a Black Widow movie, but I did see Ant-man. Not on opening weekend, but then, I rarely get around to watch any movie on opening weekend.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#44166: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:58:59 AM

I just want Marvel to get the Fantastic Four back, guys, why are we all arguing about Black Widow and Ant-Man? sad

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#44167: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:00:32 PM

I still have yet to see Ant-Man. And this schedule bump... does not inspire me to do so.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#44168: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:01:46 PM

Well, it's not like the film itself is to blame for it.

Oh God! Natural light!
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#44169: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:03:09 PM

I guess not. But at this point I'm honestly just considering boycotting every MCU movie with a white male lead.

It wouldn't be much of a boycott since I don't really have the money to see them anyway, but, yknow.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#44170: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:07:55 PM

Boycotts rarely work, and in the case of movies, it just makes people look petty and ridiculous, and easy to call out on.

Watch Symphogear
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#44171: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:08:41 PM

[up]x5

Good luck with that. Apparently FOX is still going ahead with the sequel.

[up] Sometimes it works, but mostly when it's something egregious within the film itself as opposed to being part of a systematic problem. Otherwise, it's more productive not to boycott but to fund ones that defy the norm. For example promoting female led movies that pass the Bechdel test is more likely to make a difference than asking to boycott the ones that don't.

edited 8th Oct '15 12:11:29 PM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#44172: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:09:48 PM

Who knows, perhaps one of the secret movies is Fantastic 4 because Marvel and Fox have managed to come to an agreement behind the scenes.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#44173: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:09:55 PM

Edit: NVM

edited 8th Oct '15 12:10:45 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44174: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:11:45 PM

[up][up][up]And after Amazing Spider-Man 2 Sony was planning two sequels and four spin-offs. The movie made a pitiful amount of money and had a ton of negative publicity. Frankly I think Fox would be insane to make another.

edited 8th Oct '15 12:12:25 PM by Kostya

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44175: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:13:04 PM

2 sequels and 6 spinoffs you mean.

edited 8th Oct '15 12:16:42 PM by VeryMelon


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