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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#44126: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:26:43 AM

That's true, but I highly doubt that is because of "an army of angry Black Widow fans".

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44127: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:27:43 AM

What is being argued here exactly?

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#44128: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:28:51 AM

Can we stop talking about the hypothetical movies Marvel is dicking over by not making and instead focus on the real projects that are getting winter dump dates as a result of Ant-Man's relative success?

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#44129: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:29:31 AM

That Kevin Feige could easily Win Back the Crowd in regard to the part of its fanbase that's frustrated over the constant snubbing of Black Widow in film announcements and merchandising just by saying the words, "We are making a Black Widow movie."

edited 8th Oct '15 10:30:03 AM by TobiasDrake

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#44130: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:29:47 AM

It has already moved past The first Avenger and will soon have made more than Thor, so no problem there. It is also the fourth highest grossing heist movie of all time, in case anyone is interested.

Considering that Ant-man is a literally unknown character and there was a lot of negative buzz surrounding the movie, it did what it was supposed to do.

And really, they wouldn't make a sequel if they weren't happy with the result and the positive reactions of the audience.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#44131: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:30:55 AM

I'm not saying it didn't make money, I'm saying that the negative buzz had a not-negligible impact on what money it made.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44132: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:31:37 AM

If this entire conversation is about upset Black Widow fans, why bring up Ant-Man at all?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#44133: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:32:12 AM

That Ant-Man made money on par with Phase 1 instead of Phase 2 is my point.

But, again, that's not a bad thing. It was also made for less money than all the other Phase 2 films:

  • Iron Man 3 was made for $200 million
  • Thor: The Dark World and Captain America: The Winter Solder were both made for $170 million
  • Guardians of the Galaxy was made for $195.9 million
  • And, again, Age of Ultron was made for $279.9 million.

Ant-Man's budget was, again, $130 million, which means that it could make less money and still be a box office winner, which it was. Saying that it made less than the other Phase 2 doesn't make any different - it was still a box office winner. That's why they are making a sequel.

I mean, I don't like how they are pushing back Captain Marvel either, but there is no way they would have greelit Ant-Man and the Wasp if it in any way lost them money.

And saying that this was "revenge of the Black Widow fans" made no sense whatsoever.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:33:00 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#44134: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:32:16 AM

[up][up]Because part of Ant-Man's negative buzz was angry Black Widow fans who were upset that Ant-Man was getting a movie before her. A lot of BW fans boycotted the film; had that not occurred, it might have made $600 or $700 million instead of $400.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:33:09 AM by TobiasDrake

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#44135: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:34:44 AM

[up] Yeah, I highly doubt any boycott by Black Widow fans made any difference.

A lot of BW fans boycotted the film; had that not occurred, it might have made $600 or $700 million instead of $400.

Ha! That's hilarious. I highly doubt that there were that many fans that boycotted.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:35:16 AM by alliterator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#44136: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:34:51 AM

I'm rather skeptical of that. Like I know whenever The Mary Sue covered Ant-Man, they applied a negative tone to it and I kept seeing that sentiment on Tumblr- but that's not exactly a huge sample size of people.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#44138: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:35:58 AM

Math numbers and possible cause aside, I'm glad that there's going to be an Ant Man sequel.

Not being shackled by working around an Edgar Wright script and getting co-billing I have hopes on top of hopes that we'll get a better Hope van Dyne this time.

At the very least, she'll be suited up. Although, ideally not in the exact costume they showed at the end. I don't like that one.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#44139: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:36:10 AM

It's a theory based on nothing.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#44140: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:38:07 AM

it severely overestimates how many and how much people actually care about this

like, i'm pretty sure most people kind of don't care

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44141: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:39:50 AM

I really doubt a bunch of butthurt Black Widow fans were in any way a detriment to Ant-Man's success.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#44142: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:44:14 AM

Think what you will, but the numbers speak for themselves. You say, "It's because it's a weird premise," but Guardians made twice as much. You say, "it's because it was the first time the character's had a film," but Guardians made twice as much. You say, "It's a heist movie," but Fast & the Furious 5, 6, and 7 all beat it by a wide margin. You say, "It's because it hasn't opened in China yet," but even just looking at the domestic sales, it's still dead last - losing to Thor The Dark World by a margin of $30 million.

Fact is, Ant-Man had a terrible opening weekend, the kind the franchise hasn't seen since the actual failure The Incredible Hulk. It was off to a bad start when only about half to 2/3 of the people who normally turn out for MCU films showed up to it, but it was able to Win Back the Crowd on word-of-mouth and critical reception in the weeks to follow and gain enough of a following to climb up to $409 million, succeeding financially but underperforming its peers in Marvel's second phase.

Ant-Man was a success and it made money, but its box office numbers were initially hampered by the amount of people that just didn't want the film to exist.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:45:41 AM by TobiasDrake

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#44143: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:45:46 AM

The negative buzz was about behind the scenes stuff and a general "who cares about Ant-man" attitude. It had next to nothing to do with Black Widow.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44144: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:46:23 AM

Tobias I get that you didn't like Ant-Man but at this point you're just twisting things around to support a fictitious narrative. It's getting a tad annoying.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#44145: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:49:34 AM

Guardians of the Galaxy was a space opera with several former criminals on a quest for redemption.

Ant-Man is about a guy who controls fucking ants.

It's not a matter of weirdness, it's a matter of people taking Ant-Man as seriously as they take Aquaman. What sounds better in your head, "Guardians of the Galaxy" or "Ant-man"?

If anything other than people having preconceived notions troubled the movie, it was the fans of Edgar Wright being annoyed rather than the absurd theory the Black Widow fanbase somehow staged a box office failure by force of sheer will in a witch hunt of sorts.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#44146: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:50:15 AM

I really doubt that Kevin Feige cares if the fanbase is pissed off or not.

Probably not but I do think that a lot of their stuff regarding Phase 3 thus far has been about answering complaints. Just last week he was giving an interview about "Marvel's commitment to diversity" in Phase 3 and now in this piece they made a point of trying to make sure people know how progressive this movie is because "It's the first time a Marvel movie has a woman's name in the headline!"

And despite what anyone says I still imagine the complaints about Monochrome Casting (to the extent that outlets like The Hollywood Reporter and Deadline were doing pieces on "Marvel's diversity problem") factored into them announcing Black Panther and Captain Marvel for Phase 3.

Of course even then diversity is just good business sense and you're seeing a lot more franchises trying to get in on that.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:50:42 AM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#44147: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:51:22 AM

If anything other than people having preconceived notions troubled the movie, it was the fans of Edgar Wright being annoyed rather than the absurd theory the Black Widow fanbase somehow staged a box office failure by force of sheer will in a witch hunt of sorts.

What?

I'm just saying that a lot of Black Widow's fans were upset and didn't go see the movie, and that contributed to the film's financial state. I don't know why this has turned into such a massive thing. People not seeing a thing results in the thing not making as much money as it would make if the people saw the thing.

A boycott isn't a witch hunt, and it doesn't take a conspiracy for a product to make less money than it would without a boycott.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:52:58 AM by TobiasDrake

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#44148: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:52:19 AM

Fact is, Ant-Man had a terrible opening weekend, the kind the franchise hasn't seen since the actual failure The Incredible Hulk.

Except, at this point, Ant-Man has made twice what Incredible Hulk made. The worldwide box office of Incredible Hulk was $263 million. Ant-Man is already at $409 million. Say what you will about opening weekend, but that actually matters much less than the total box office performance and staying power.

I'm just saying that a lot of Black Widow's fans were upset and didn't go see the movie, and that contributed to the film's financial state.

No, you were saying that Black Widow fans who boycotted the film (of which I heard barely anything about) would have contributed $300 million to the box office. That is an outrageous claim and clearly untrue.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:53:15 AM by alliterator

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44149: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:53:25 AM

You're severely overestimating how badly the lack of a Black Widow movie hurt the film. Even if thousands of people refused to see it on that principle the combined profits from them would be a rounding error at best.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#44150: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:54:14 AM

Yeah, I covered that in the rest of the post that you selectively removed.

Fact is, Ant-Man had a terrible opening weekend, the kind the franchise hasn't seen since the actual failure The Incredible Hulk. It was off to a bad start when only about half to 2/3 of the people who normally turn out for MCU films showed up to it, but it was able to Win Back the Crowd on word-of-mouth and critical reception in the weeks to follow and gain enough of a following to climb up to $409 million, succeeding financially but underperforming its peers in Marvel's second phase.

Alliterator, you're arguing in bad faith against points I'm not making. Your case is, "Ant-Man was financially successful." My case is, "Ant-Man is financially successful but not as successful as it could have been if a portion of the fanbase wasn't spitefully refusing to see it."

edited 8th Oct '15 10:54:34 AM by TobiasDrake

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